[Bldg-sim] simulation software

Aulbach, John jaulbach at nexant.com
Tue Dec 18 13:21:09 PST 2007


Folks:

I will reply when I have more time. Holiday rush, you know.

Right now, I am completing a LEED model...

In eQuest.. 

-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Steve Playo
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:03 AM
To: 'Ardas Sabuncuyan'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] simulation software

Hello Ardas, hello to the Bldg-sim community. 

Short answer: Go with TRACE.

Longer response: 

Ardas, I'm afraid you have given me the opportunity I've been holding
back on, to give my two-cents on the "eQuest or not eQuest" question.
As you can see below, that two-cents has ballooned into several thousand
dollars of thoughts (ha!) but I want to make sure I detail may answers
in the hopes it minimizes any offense taken to those who love eQuest.

I am an engineer working for a consulting firm in Philadelphia.  We have
been fortunate to land several large projects, of which some level of
LEED certification is being sought for each.  I have my LEED AP
certification, and have worked as an energy analyst and LEED
professional on several projects already.  Beyond my engineering
background, I also worked for many years in the IT industry, and have
experience in programming and application integration and development.
Therefore, I am the lucky guy in this office who was chosen to lead the
effort in becoming proficient in energy simulation and modeling
software.  We use different software packages depending on what is best
suited for project needs.  When we began this endeavor, we heard about
eQuest back when it was in its early 3.x series versions, not as far
back as some on this board I know but still far back enough to
appreciate newer developments in the program.  

I describe all of the above so that you know my opinion here comes from
practical experience and hands-on application of not only eQuest, but
other software packages.  With that said: 

Do not use eQuest. Go for TRACE, ENERGY 10, Carrier's HAP, or get into
the Revit vanguard, but if you are coming into the eQuest package cold,
you will find it to be frustrating, unreliable, and above all, lacking
in any real support structure in the event you have questions. 

To elaborate: 

1)There is NO REAL SUPPORT for eQuest users. None. I know creating and
maintaining an open board like Bldg-Sim is a time-consuming, often
thankless tasks, so right off the bat I want to make it clear to those
that have worked hard to make this forum, and probably have some
emotional attachment to it - I applaud your effort and continue to check
the board often for new discussion threads, of which I find several very
interesting.  However, what is often discussed and replied to on the
Bldg-sim board has NOTHING to do with questions regarding the operation
of eQuest.  As an example, recently there was a lively thread regarding
the application of ASHRAE's 90.1 Appdx G rule, which requires the budget
building model to rotate and average its simulated energy performance.
Great discussion to all those involved, I feel I learned a lot thru the
back-and-forth.  However, that discussion had nothing, or very little,
to do with eQuest.  
eQuest has it's origins as a text-only, line-command programming code,
and the graphic user interface (GUI)you see and use is an attempt to
simplify using the code's simulation engine, to reach a wider audience
of engineers who were not proficient in direct coding.  In order to make
the graphic interface manageable, however, the developers had to make
choices as to what code aspects the graphic input screens would first be
connected to, and what would have to wait for later updates.
Ultimately, I think it will be impossible to give the GUI the complete
capabilities as direct coding. That means if you needed to do something
with a system sim that was not represented in the GUI, you must go to
the code directly - a daunting task even for someone with coding
experience, let alone and engineer who has no background in it.  

Since eQuest is a freeware product (or is the proper term shareware? Not
sure...), it was attractive to engineers who did not want to spend a lot
up front to do simulations, and soon the "buzzword" of the eQuest name
got around, and owner reps and other non-tech entities began asking if
their engineers were using eQuest, we must validate with eQuest, how's
that eQuest model coming along, etc.  Of course firms wanted to get on
the bandwagon, and be able to say "sure, we use eQuest" to win projects.
However, what that left the engineer with was a freeware product that
was very detailed even with its GUI, required a large learning curve,
and, since you didn't pay anything for it, had no support line or real
support structure to it.  Even to this day, I am unaware of any
bona-fide support resource.  What made matters worse was that eQuest was
constantly being updated, even the help files.  Often you would go to a
specific topic in the help file, only to find "Under Construction" as
the answer! I've been told that "question packs" would be available, as
in you could pay $400 or so for a set amount of tech issues, but I am
unaware if this has actually gotten off the ground.


When you purchase TRACE or any of the other retail packages, the upfront
cost is required I know, but you have then bought into a real support
structure where you can email or call with questions or problems with
simulation.  I can't stress how important that is.  When you get knee
deep in a building model for a multi-million dollar project, and get
snagged on some techie bug with outputs or software gliches, trust me
you don't want your only means of support to be a discussion forum, you
want to call a software support tech who is being paid to assist you. 

I have other points to this, but the email is getting long in the tooth.
The other points I will make brief and wait for any response: 

2)eQuest operation is frustrating.  If you have a model that can stay
within the Design Wizard mode, most inputs and code-related data is
automatically entered for you, and the sim run smoothly.  However, I
have never had a model which I could fully run in Wiz mode, always
having to access the Detailed Date Edit mode and go bit by bit thru all
the inputs.  Very frustrating.  Also, there are several inputs which are
difficult to understand, and, coupled with the lack of help file
sections, become mysteries.  And lack of user interface features becomes
a pain.  For example, eQuest offers a table-style list of data inputs
for anything from window data to air handler data, but you cannot do
group edits easily such as select a similar column of cells and change
all values at once.
Simulation processing times can be long, and there is no option which
minimizes what is simulated.  Carrier's HAP program for example allows
you to pick and choose what reports are generated, and what simulations
are performed. eQuest just has one large output file with ten thousand
pages.
Maybe there is someone out there who knows some shortcuts to these
specific problems - but that gets back to the support issue - I am now
relying on someone to take the time to explain things to me, and for my
time on this board I have seen many, many question go unanswered.

3)eQuest reports are unreliable.  This may be due to the extensive
detailed inputs that are required for most system comparisons, but the
result remains the same - often eQuest reports (generated thru the DDE
mode) come back with crazy values and conclusions, which are difficult
to analyze.  I've also ran the same report several times on a model that
had no modifications applied, and the results have come back
differently. This may be a factor of eQuest's continuous updates and bug
fixes, but again, if you are responsible for analyzing a multi-million
dollar building for LEED's EAcr1-10, you don't want to be staying up all
night trying to decipher cryptic report results. 

I know eQuest has a lot of potential, and I have had some limited
success in running simple models.  The unfortunate reality is most
models are not simple, and when you enter into the "gaming" of what-ifs
to see how insulation levels affect performance, what would ice storage
be like vs.
chilled water, how does daylight econ impact light loads, water-cooled
compressors on DX units and apply water-side economization, etc etc,
then it doesn't help if you've "heard" eQuest can do all these things,
and have no recourse to find out how it can be operated to do so.  The
reality is there are other very good, very capable simulation packages
out there, that may not have all the detail as eQuest, but at least can
return valid results and support their user base more effectively. 

I think in the final analysis, that the hype of eQuest's purported
capabilities has outpaced the practical reality of its true
capabilities, and we as engineers are stuck trying to connect the open
ends.

Hope this helps, 

Steve Playo
PHY Engineers
215-592-1900

-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ardas
Sabuncuyan
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:41 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Bldg-sim] simulation software

hi,

 we are planning to use EQUEST or TRACE 700 for energy simulation. 

 Is eQUEST an approved software by USGBC (in Texas)?

Where can we get training in DFW (Dallas Fort Worth) area?

 Which one is easier, faster? Trace 700 or eQUEST?

or do you know other simulation software (preferable free) that we can
utilize in our LEED design projects and we can get training in DFW area?

thanks

Ardas

 
 
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