[Bldg-sim] Fw: simulation software
Joe Sisko
jsisko03 at aol.com
Fri Dec 21 12:08:40 PST 2007
I am involved in developing what we are calling an advanced building studio at my architecture firm. I have some background with this, but am still relatively new. We have been experimenting with several softwares that would be compatible in any facet with revit (our firms BIM tool of choice) we finally settled on IES VE and i think it was a solid decision. I have found that it is certainly not the quickest tool for the iterative design loops we all want, but when you really want to drill down into how your design choices are impacting the internal environment it is the best comprehensive package out there. (there are minor conversion issues being an English system, but give it a little time and you get used to it, the support system available is worth it alone)
As architects we are really most concerned with reducing the loads on the building so that our engineers can select the best system for reducing energy. this is were energy modeling gets tricky for us architects who are not really qualified to make the specific mechanical decisions that some of these softwares require at the start. another reason that as we dive into these softwares we should be constantly consulting our engineers from day one on the project. We looked at IES, GBS, equest, and ecotect. and determined that it is not one of these that we need to settle on, but rather develop a strategy that involves several tools for getting quick results to mitigate the big decisions then switch software for drilling down deeper. it seems to be working so far. this also allows us to constantly compare/confirm results between software.
as a bit of a side note. the new plugin for revit architecture has made the link even easier. the toolkit is nice for 30 sec checks, but more importantly when you setup building properties in the IES link within revit they stay with the building through the export to the full version of IES. this means you only have to put those values in once even if you change your geometry. a big time saver.
Also to Josh, the biggest thing to understand with revit and gbxml is how to set up Rooms (there is documentation that someone linked to earlier). They determine everything, which is unfortunate because the Rooms feature in Revit is, shall we say, intellectually bereft.
-joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris.Buntine at sce.com
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:44 pm
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Fw: simulation software
I've had some limited experience using
the Revit IES VE link and have found the translation of building information
to work well. In some cases I did find that building materials specifications
didn't translate properly and had to be re-specified inside IES VE. Revit
also lacks the ability to specify HVAC zones and equipment parameters so
these also had to be input directly into IES VE. I think these tools
are very promising for analyzing early design decisions without the need
to create a separate thermal model. Unfortunately the interoperability
only works in one direction so changes to the building in IES VE don't
translate back into Revit. In the future I would like to be able
to create a gbXML file from Revit and import that directly into eQuest.
Chris Buntine
Project Manager
Design and Engineering Services
Southern California Edison
626 812 7593
----- Forwarded by Chris
Buntine/SCE/EIX on 12/21/2007 09:25 AM -----
"Brain, Joshua"
<JBrain at Vanderweil.com>
Sent by: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
12/21/2007 09:11 AM
To
"Renee Azerbegi"
<renee at ambient-e.com>, "Mike Roberts" <Mike at roberts-engineering.com>,
"Karen Walkerman" <kwalkerman at gmail.com>, <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
cc
Subject
Re: [Bldg-sim] simulation
software
I would like to know other people's experience as
well. I have been using eQuest for some time and more recently have
been experimenting with IES <VE>. I have been entering geometry
into IES by hand so that I could become familiar with the program. In
the mean time I have been given 2 different Revit gbxml files that were
provided by architects but I have been unsuccessful in importing them into
IES. Problems with the zones not being identified and other related
issues have been the sticking point. Once these issues are resolved
and the architect understands what needs to be done prior to exporting
a gbxml file I will have a much better feel of Revit/ IES capabilities.
On paper this looks like a very powerful tool...
-Josh
-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]
On Behalf Of Renee Azerbegi
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 11:47 AM
To: Mike Roberts; Karen Walkerman; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] simulation software
I think eQuest and TRACE are becoming dated with new architectural programs
such as REVIT, ARCHICAD, etc. that most architects are using that can be
used with IES-VE, Energy Plus, and other programs. I'd be curious about
any opinions on the success or failure of those who have taken that next
step of taking a 3D archicad or revit model and imported into IESVE or
Energy Plus and how easy it is for architects to produce a compatible file
for modelers to use as they have to do a few things to make it compatitable
for moderlers to use.
Renée
Renée Azerbegi, CEM, LEED-AP
ambient energy - solar & sustainable design solutions
t 303.278.1532 | f 303.278.8533 | c 303.885.2695 | renee at ambient-e.com
| ambient-e.com (updated website!)
Don't Google....... Blackle blackle.com
-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]
On Behalf Of Mike Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:15 PM
To: 'Karen Walkerman'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] simulation software
Now this is the beginning of a very useful thread!
Steve Playo pointed out some important things to consider in choosing an
energy simulation program. I also agree with Karen Walkerman in her
defense
of eQUEST. I, too, would use it in preference to TRACE in most cases.
What too many people do not realize is energy simulation is a very
complicated and detailed process. Far too many assume the eQUEST
wizard or
the TRACE entry method will allow them to simulate a building for LEED
or
whatever without going through the agony of learning what the building
is
doing or how the program models it. It just isn't going to happen.
I have been doing energy simulation for 30 years. I started with
Cal-ERDA
1.3 (predecessor to DOE-2.2, the eQUEST calculation engine) on a time shared
main frame computer. After a couple years of expensive time sharing,
I
helped my employer install DOE-2.1 on a DEC System 10 main frame. In
1986,
I left that employer to do energy simulation for my own company. Over
the
years, I have used DOE, TRACE, BLAST, and a number of other simulation
programs. I have taken training courses in most of the ones I have
used and
assisted in training courses for eQUEST. The point is that even now,
I
learn something new on every project. I used to say that running
DOE took
the equivalent of a five hour college course. Now, I think it is
the
equivalent of a college degree.
Don't worry about how cheap the program is to obtain. Whatever it
costs
will pale compared to the cost of learning how to use it. Take the
training
for whatever program you are going to use and then expect to spend a lot
more time on the learning curve.
This is not to discourage using energy simulation. Energy simulation
is a
wonderful tool. It is easy to come up with more than enough energy
and
dollar savings to offset the additional engineering hours. And it
will only
become more important in the future. It's just not as easy as some
people
would like to think.
Mike Roberts
-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Karen Walkerman
Sent: 12/18/2007 11:49 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] simulation software
Hi All,
I too have spent many frustrating nights trying to figure out what is wrong
with my eQuest models. After all the brow-beating, I have always
come to
the conclusion that something was wrong with my inputs, not with the
software, and been able to remedy the issue. Not true for Trace700.
I
spent about a year with Trace, found a number of bugs (some of which the
company is now fixing), got frustrated with the long (hour-plus) simulation
times, and limitation to modeling 4 alternatives in one file. Yes
it's nice
that there's someone to call when you have questions, but they don't always
know the answer. I had people telling me to check my fan energy inputs
when
the odd data I was getting had nothing to do with fans.
In addition, I often have trouble with data corruption when editing
templates. Granted, templates are a great idea and I wish eQuest
had a
similar option, but when your inputs are corrupted and you have to go
through and check room by room to see what remains... not a fun process.
Trace700 has no visual feedback for window, wall, room or roof geometry.
This can be a pain.
I also believe that their water source heat-pump system does not share
energy in the loop properly. I created a test-file, consisting of
two
10X10X10 rooms. One room had a large cooling load, the other a large
heating mode. Neither had any external surface areas. The total
energy
required to condition the spaces should have been much lower for heat pumps
than for fain coils... but, they were practically identical. I sent
the
model to Trace, and they argued that this was not a fair test of their
software????
So... though eQuest can be frustrating at times, I gladly use it over Trace.
~Karen~
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