[Bldg-sim] Spam:Re:LEEDmodelingrequirements forexistingbuildings

[Demba Ndiaye]

I believe Jeff has it right regarding the envelope requirements. The
reference guide for LEED NC 2.2 does write (page 186a): "For existing
buildings that are being renovated, the building envelope design
parameters for the Baseline Design should be modeled using the existing
(pre-retrofit) building envelope thermal parameters rather than the
ASHRAE Std. 90.1 prescriptive building envelope requirements for the
specified climate. Any proposed changes to the building envelope (such
as replacing windows or increasing roof insulation) should be modeled in
the Proposed Design."

______________
Demba Ndiaye

> -----Original Message-----
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-
> bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ross-Bain
> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:29 PM
> To: Amanda Bogner; Mark Sorensen; Carol Gardner
> Cc: Eric O'Neill; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Spam:Re:LEEDmodelingrequirements
> forexistingbuildings
> 
> My interpretation is different. Table G3.1 5(f) says for the building
> envelope only:
> 
>  "...the baseline building design shall reflect conditions PRIOR to
any
> revisions that are part of the scope of work being evaluated."
> 
> So, if I read this right, the baseline reflects the as-is conditions
and
> the design case reflects the new conditions. Now when there are
> additions, such as adding an atrium or more space, then the baseline
> becomes 90.1 because there was nothing there before.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jeffrey G. Ross-Bain, PE, LEED
> Smith Dalia Architects
> 621 North Ave NE
> Suite C-140
> Atlanta, GA, 30308
> 404-892-2443
> www.smithdalia.com
> 
> P Build Green...Save Time
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amanda Bogner [mailto:amanda at bvm-engineering.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:12 PM
> To: 'Mark Sorensen'; 'Carol Gardner'; Jeff Ross-Bain
> Cc: 'Eric O'Neill'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Spam:Re: LEEDmodelingrequirements
> forexistingbuildings
> 
> The way I understand it is as follows:
> 
> 1.  All parameters in basecase and as designed case = existing
> conditions if
> not being altered.
> 2.  If improvements will be made to component X in the as designed
case,
> the
> basecase component X = 90.1 requirements.
> 
> So, for example, if the envelope is not being altered, set it to
> existing
> conditions in both the basecase and as designed models if the
> information is
> available.  Otherwise, you can use 90.1 values in both models.  If the
> glazing is going to be updated as part of the renovation, the basecase
=
> 90.1 requirements, the as designed case = new glazing.
> 
> A similar situation applies to system improvements.  For example, if a
> VFD
> is going to be added to the cooling tower fan, the basecase will need
to
> be
> modeled as a two-speed fan per the requirements of 90.1, regardless of
> what
> is existing.
> 
> Essentially, the existing building basecase becomes a moving target as
> energy improvements are considered.
> 
> If feel this is incorrect, please let me know.
> 
> Thanks,
> Amanda Bogner
> BVM Engineering, Inc.
> 404.806.2018 x103
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Mark
> Sorensen
> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:57 AM
> To: 'Carol Gardner'; 'Jeff Ross-Bain'
> Cc: 'Eric O'Neill'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Spam:Re: LEEDmodelingrequirements
> forexistingbuildings
> 
> Table G3.1 item 5(f) indicates that you would use the U-factors and
SHGC
> from the existing building envelope prior to any revisions that are
part
> of
> the scope of work being evaluated. Someone please straighten me out on
> this
> because I'm having a hard time understanding how it could be
interpreted
> that you need to use the minimum U-factors and SHGC from the tables in
> Section 5 for the baseline building regardless of whether those
envelope
> components are being altered or not.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mark Sorensen CEM
> Diversified Energy Services
> 5890 E. Pontaluna Rd.
> Fruitport, MI 49415
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Carol
> Gardner
> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:33 AM
> To: Jeff Ross-Bain
> Cc: Eric O'Neill; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Spam:Re: LEED modelingrequirements
> forexistingbuildings
> 
> I thought that the rotation requirement was gone in any case.
> Carol
> 
> Jeff Ross-Bain wrote:
> >
> > I asked the USGBC for an interpretation (not an official CIR) on the
> > need for rotating an existing building for modeling purposes and the
> > response was that the existing building does in fact need to be
> rotated.
> >
> > This is their response (the "specified analysis" refers to building
> > rotation of an existing building):
> >
> > If the existing building being renovated is pursuing LEED-NC rather
> > than LEED-EB, then it would indeed be required to undergo the
> > specified analysis. This analysis is used to establish the baseline
> > for energy performance using the ASHRAE standard. LEED doesn't have
> > any specific exemptions for existing buildings in this requirement,
> > but if ASHRAE has some kind of exemption, we will honor that.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > */Jeffrey G. Ross-Bain, PE, LEED/*
> > Smith Dalia Architects
> > 621 North Ave NE
> > Suite C-140
> > Atlanta, GA, 30308
> > 404-892-2443
> > www.smithdalia.com <http://www.smithdalia.com>
> >
> > P Build Green...Save Time
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> > [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of
*Michael
> 
> > Tillou
> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 21, 2008 9:15 AM
> > *To:* 'Jay Keazer'
> > *Cc:* 'Eric O'Neill'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> > *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Spam:Re: LEED modeling requirements
> > forexistingbuildings
> >
> > Jay,
> >
> > It is my understanding that that is the correct interpretation.
> >
> > However, I don't think Eric's interpretation that the baseline
> > rotation requirement does not apply to existing buildings is
correct.
> > Let me explain why I disagree.
> >
> > Requirement f in Part 5 of Table 3.1 refers specifically to the
> > //baseline building design// (note the italics which signify that a
> > phrase or word is defined in Section 3 of the Standard) while
> > Requirement a in Part 5 of Table 3.1 refers specifically to the
> > //baseline building performance// (again in italics). The //baseline
> > building design// is not the same as the //baseline building
> > performance// and therefore Requirement f. cannot supercede
> > Requirement a in any case.
> >
> > One last comment about the equal window distribution. ASHRAE
90.1-2004
> 
> > Addendum a removes the equal distribution requirement for windows in
> > the baseline. If you're working on a LEED project I suggest you
> > consider adopting Addendum a to avoid this requirement. USGBC has
> > allowed the use of ASHRAE 90.1-2004 addenda. If you do decide to
adopt
> 
> > Addendum a remember that USGBC requires that you incorporate all the
> > changes included in the Addenddum. Addendum a has a total of eight
> > changes to Appendix G, most important of which are the changes to
the
> > calculation of the baseline HVAC system types.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Michael Tillou, PE, LEED
> >
> > Tillou Engineering, LLC
> >
> > Williamstown, MA 01267
> >
> > P: 413-458-9870 C: 413-652-1087
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> > [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay
> Keazer
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:42 AM
> > *To:* Eric O'Neill; Mark Sorensen; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> > *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Spam:Re: LEED modeling requirements for
> > existingbuildings
> >
> > What about the baseline envelope assemblies? As an example I have an
> > existing building where the windows are being replaced and
insulation
> > is being sprayed on the outside of a built up roof.
> >
> > In the same column of Table G3.1, requirement (b) states that
"Opaque
> > assemblies used for /alterations/ shall conform with 5.1.3" and
> > requirement (c) states that "The fenestration areas for envelope
> > /alterations/ shall reflect the limitations on area, U-factor, and
> > SHGC as described in 5.1.3."
> >
> > 5.1.3 states that "Alterations to the building envelope shall comply
> > with the requirements of Section 5 for insulation, air leakage, and
> > fenestration *applicable to those specific portions of the building
> > that are being altered*."
> >
> > My interpretation is: because the windows and roof are being
altered,
> > I have to use the appropriate U-factors and SHGC from the tables for
> > the baseline windows and roof. However, the walls are not being
> > altered, so I can use the existing construction for the baseline
> walls.
> >
> > Does anybody have a different interpretation?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > */Jay Keazer, EI/*
> >
> > Energy Engineer
> >
> > TME, Inc.
> >
> > 2039 N Green Acres Road
> >
> > Fayetteville, AR 72703
> >
> > ph 479.521.8634
> >
> > fax 479.521.1014
> >
> > _jkeazer at tmecorp.com <mailto:email at tmecorp.com>___
> >
> > _www.tmecorp.com <http://www.tmecorp.com/>_
> >
> > *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> > [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric
> > O'Neill
> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 14, 2008 3:16 PM
> > *To:* Mark Sorensen; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> > *Subject:* Spam:Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED modeling requirements for
existing
> 
> > buildings
> >
> > Mark,
> > Under ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix G, Table G3.1, Section 5, "Baseline
> > Building Performance" column, requirement (f) (take a breath.) it
> > states that "For existing building envelopes, the baseline building
> > design shall reflect existing conditions prior to any revisions that
> > are part of the scope of work being evaluated". So the rotation
> > doesn't apply to you. Also, I interpret that to mean the windows
don't
> 
> > need to be redistributed either. Hope that helps!
> >
> > */Eric O'Neill/*
> > Mechanical Engineer
> > Energy Division - Michaels Engineering
> >
> > 811 Monitor St. Ste 100
> > La Crosse, WI 54603
> > v: 608-785-1900 x521
> > f: 608-784-2270
> > elo at michaelsengineering.com
> > http://www.michaelsengineering.com
> >
> > *From:* Mark Sorensen [mailto:DEnergyServices at comcast.net]
> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 14, 2008 10:40 AM
> > *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> > *Subject:* [Bldg-sim] LEED modeling requirements for existing
> buildings
> >
> > When modeling an existing building, is required to calculate the
> > proposed building window to wall ratio and equally redistribute the
> > glass area to the baseline building and prepare models for the four
> > rotation exposures? My take is that for a proposed existing
building,
> > there is not an opportunity to position the building to the most
> > advantageous exposure and you could end up being penalized if the
> > baseline energy use is averaged for all rotations but I have not
been
> > able to find any reference in LEED or ASHRAE to support this. I'm
not
> > sure what to think about equal redistribution of the glass areas.
> >
> > Mark Sorensen
> > Diversified Energy Services
> > 5890 E. Pontaluna Rd.
> > Fruitport, MI 49415
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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> 
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