[Bldg-sim] Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 7, Issue 20

Pleasants, David DavidP at JMPCO.com
Wed Jun 25 15:18:30 PDT 2008


Multiple, small, low cost condensing boilers with self contained, condensing program controllers (up to eight boilers), give more operation time at higher efficiencies. Lochinvar's Knight boiler does this. By copy of this email, I am asking Lochinvar to participate in this project.

David Pleasants
Vice President
James M. Pleasants Co., Inc.
Office  800.365.9010
Fax      336.378.2588
Direct  336.369.6012
Cell      336.580.1066
davidp at jmpco.com
Assistant: Linda Breedlove
Direct  336.369.6013
lindab at jmpco.com

http://www.jmpco.com



-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of bldg-sim-request at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 3:54 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 7, Issue 20

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Today's Topics:

   1. eQUEST condensing boiler (Steven Gates)
   2. Re: Spam:[Equest-users] eQUEST condensing boiler (James Hess)
   3. Re: [Equest-users] Spam: eQUEST condensing boiler (Steven Gates)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:32:10 -0700
From: "Steven Gates" <stvgates at pacbell.net>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] eQUEST condensing boiler
To: <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>,
	<equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <20080625003337.F2CD548002 at diego.dreamhost.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The eQUEST development team is in the process of implementing a condensing
boiler. We are looking for performance data, both for the effect of entering
temperature on fuel consumption, as well as the impact of part load
operating conditions on fuel consumption.  If you have information you are
willing to share, please contact me.

 

Thanks,

 

Steve Gates

(916) 638-1203

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:28:35 -0500
From: "James Hess" <JHess at tmecorp.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Spam:[Equest-users] eQUEST condensing boiler
To: <steve.gates at doe2.com>, <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>,
	<equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
	<FA5ADDF4A8F8294482D7D6FE6FF8777602AC716B at tme-s05.tmecorp.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Steve,

 

Glad to hear this, as this will be a good feature for eQuest.  In the past
when we've performed analysis on condensing boilers, we used performance data
from Aerco's website, such as: 

 

http://www.aerco.com/products/benchmark3-specs.shtml

 

There is a link at the top for the efficiency curves that take into account
return temperature and part load.  You should check with Aerco regarding
using the data, but I'm sure you guys could work out a deal with them and
other boiler manufacturers, similar to what you guys did with ClimateMaster,
to enable us to use custom curves for specific boilers.

 

It would be nice to have the capability to directly simulate the condensing
boilers in eQuest.  It would save us a bunch of additional steps that we
currently use.  The current method we use for simulating condensing boilers
is to first pull all hourly heating load and temperature data into a
spreadsheet.  Then, we calculate the efficiency for each hour based on the
load and temp conditions, and the Aerco performance curves.  Then, we use all
of those calcs to calculate the annual average efficiency, and then we enter
that number into eQuest along with a custom PLR curve and zero standby and
start-up times.  The custom PLR curve is a "y = m*x + B" type where m = 1 and
B = 0 so that the effects of part load are eliminated, since my annual
average efficiency number already takes this into account.    I believe this
is similar to what Marlin showed us in a training class about 2 years ago.

 

We usually come up with annual average efficiencies of about 90 to 91 %,
which seem reasonable.  Higher efficiencies are available in theory, but they
bump up against the fact that there is usually not much heating load when you
can get away with the lower temperatures required for the higher
efficiencies.  Therefore, the really high efficiencies (when present) don't
have much of an effect on the annual average number.

 

Hope this helps!

 

One question; if you guys are in the process of adding a few bells and
whistles to the eQuest program, would you mind if we (eQuest-users) submitted
additional "wish lists" items via this forum?

 

Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

James

 

 

James A.  Hess, PE, CEM

Energy Engineering Team Leader

TME, Inc.

5800 Evergreen Drive

Little Rock, AR  72205

 

ph   501-666-6776

fax  501-663-8888

cell  501-351-4667

jhess at tmecorp.com <mailto:email at tmecorp.com> 

www.tmecorp.com <http://www.tmecorp.com/> 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Steven Gates
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 7:32 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Spam:[Equest-users] eQUEST condensing boiler

 

The eQUEST development team is in the process of implementing a condensing
boiler. We are looking for performance data, both for the effect of entering
temperature on fuel consumption, as well as the impact of part load operating
conditions on fuel consumption.  If you have information you are willing to
share, please contact me.

 

Thanks,

 

Steve Gates

(916) 638-1203

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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:15:53 -0700
From: "Steven Gates" <stvgates at pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] [Equest-users] Spam: eQUEST condensing boiler
To: "'James Hess'" <JHess at tmecorp.com>,
	<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>,	<equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <20080625161800.85D2148003 at diego.dreamhost.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks Jim,

 

Your idea regarding a "wish list" for new features in eQUEST is a good one.
It might be best to post requests to either the
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org, or send them directly to me at
Steve.Gates at doe2.com. It would be best to not burden the main bldg-sim list
with requests specific to eQUEST. 

 

  _____  

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James Hess
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:29 AM
To: steve.gates at doe2.com; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org;
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Spam: eQUEST condensing boiler

 

Steve,

 

Glad to hear this, as this will be a good feature for eQuest.  In the past
when we've performed analysis on condensing boilers, we used performance
data from Aerco's website, such as: 

 

http://www.aerco.com/products/benchmark3-specs.shtml

 

There is a link at the top for the efficiency curves that take into account
return temperature and part load.  You should check with Aerco regarding
using the data, but I'm sure you guys could work out a deal with them and
other boiler manufacturers, similar to what you guys did with ClimateMaster,
to enable us to use custom curves for specific boilers.

 

It would be nice to have the capability to directly simulate the condensing
boilers in eQuest.  It would save us a bunch of additional steps that we
currently use.  The current method we use for simulating condensing boilers
is to first pull all hourly heating load and temperature data into a
spreadsheet.  Then, we calculate the efficiency for each hour based on the
load and temp conditions, and the Aerco performance curves.  Then, we use
all of those calcs to calculate the annual average efficiency, and then we
enter that number into eQuest along with a custom PLR curve and zero standby
and start-up times.  The custom PLR curve is a "y = m*x + B" type where m =
1 and B = 0 so that the effects of part load are eliminated, since my annual
average efficiency number already takes this into account.    I believe this
is similar to what Marlin showed us in a training class about 2 years ago.

 

We usually come up with annual average efficiencies of about 90 to 91 %,
which seem reasonable.  Higher efficiencies are available in theory, but
they bump up against the fact that there is usually not much heating load
when you can get away with the lower temperatures required for the higher
efficiencies.  Therefore, the really high efficiencies (when present) don't
have much of an effect on the annual average number.

 

Hope this helps!

 

One question; if you guys are in the process of adding a few bells and
whistles to the eQuest program, would you mind if we (eQuest-users)
submitted additional "wish lists" items via this forum?

 

Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

James

 

 

James A.  Hess, PE, CEM

Energy Engineering Team Leader

TME, Inc.

5800 Evergreen Drive

Little Rock, AR  72205

 

ph   501-666-6776

fax  501-663-8888

cell  501-351-4667

jhess at tmecorp.com <mailto:email at tmecorp.com> 

www.tmecorp.com <http://www.tmecorp.com/> 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Steven
Gates
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 7:32 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Spam:[Equest-users] eQUEST condensing boiler

 

The eQUEST development team is in the process of implementing a condensing
boiler. We are looking for performance data, both for the effect of entering
temperature on fuel consumption, as well as the impact of part load
operating conditions on fuel consumption.  If you have information you are
willing to share, please contact me.

 

Thanks,

 

Steve Gates

(916) 638-1203

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