[Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy
Graham Carter & Megan Lyall
hamnmegs at ozemail.com.au
Wed Feb 25 03:47:59 PST 2009
We use DOE-2.2 (EQuest only for visual / tabular debugging as we work
in SI in Australia) and IES VE.
If all you want is an energy program then stick with 2.2/EQuest you
can't beat it and it will do 95%+ of what you want and quickly. Its
the other 5% that drives us (Lend Lease design in Australia) to use VE
extensively plus the fact that VE is an integrated modelling
environment allowing the assessment of thermal comfort, mixed mode
systems, daylight an shading visualisation. The latter it does poorly
and we tend to build a separate Ecotect model for better visualisation
and sun path diagrams with shadow masks - pretty nifty.
If you are just dealing with energy then VE is different from 2.2 /
eQuest in the following key ways:
- Very limited waterside capability as previously noted. To overcome
this we use DOE-2.2 chiller curves etc and hourly VE loads in a big
spreadsheet to model our cooling and heating plants. I still haven't
found anything Excel can't do given lots of RAM and MHz. With the
types of cogen and absorption systems we are looking at these days, I
can't see DOE-2.2 being able to explicitly model some of the complex
plant arrangements and generator controls we are seeing so
spreadsheets do offer increased flexibility.
- DOE-2 has a template approach to systems where you tweak parameters
and select from pre-determined control philosophies. VE allows you to
control almost any node in your air network from the properties of
another node (leaving zone, return air etc). Where this is handy is
with dedicated outdoor air systems where you are seeking humidity
control with the primary air not temperature control and the zones
having an active or passive chilled beam. You can also cascade
airflows from a floor plenum or rock store into a supply duct or space
and then into a relief or return air path.
- Temperature and comfort predictions are more reliable where airflows
are being cascaded as above in VE, but the true reliablity is of
course up to the modeller - garbage in gives garbage out.
- Solar tracking in VE is far more advanced than DOE-2 though still
with some limitations - this is useful in projects where solar tracks
deep into a space / building such as atria etc.
- Ability to split zones into a number of zones to allow
stratification (underfloor / atria etc) and allow relief air from
multiple systems into a space - DOE-2 allows a sunspace to be used as
a return air path for one system ...
- Cooling coils in VE use a constant contact or bypass factor
regardless of conditions. DOE-2 uses an advanced coil model which
dynamically changes the sensible and total cooling capacities
depending on on-coil conditions. I have never assessed how important
this is but I suspect it is quite important for certain types of
systems in cities such as Sydney and Brisbane where a lot of our work
is.
- Reporting - all the data is there in VE and Vista is quite good for
charting and binning heaps of data, but VE lacks standard template
like reports which makes debugging / assessing a big model really tough.
- DOE-2.2 runs much quicker. For comparable 30,000 m2 buildings I
would say DOE-2 runs in 1 minute and IES VE with an APhvac network
probably 1-2 hours. If you through in Macroflo it probably adds
another hour of simulation time. As a result iterative trial and
error debugging has to be done on a 1-2 week period.
Re Revit, our experience is the CAD model needs to be almost purpose
built for thermal modelling to import cleanly. Instead we use a DXF
with only select layers turned on as an underlay to snap to in ModelIT
- far quicker. Also VE does not do IP units as far as I know.
Ultimately we still use both programs and we love them in their own
unique ways - I don't think we will ever have one program that does all.
Regards,
Graham Carter
On 24/02/2009, at 10:50 AM, CARNEY Ronan wrote:
> I also back Ban full heartily on all his points. We here are using
> IES-VE in Australia to meet Australia's Green Star Credits. In
> addition
> the IES support team in Melbourne is fantastic and always always do
> their very best to solve/fix and review our models & problems.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Ronan Carney
>
> Electrical Engineer
> Project Services
> Department of Public Works,
> Level 5B, 80 George St,
> Brisbane. QLD4000
> Ph: 3224 5983
> Fax: 32246151
> Email: ronan.carney at projectservices.qld.gov.au
> Web: www.projectservices.qld.gov.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin
> Jordan
> Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2009 6:31 AM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy
>
> Varkie,
> IES-VE is a great program to use for energy simulations and
> qualifies for LEED simulations (EA Credit 1). Why use IES-VE? IES-VE
> is very good for in-depth analysis of HVAC systems and their controls
> (not strong on the water side, but very good on the air side). Also,
> IES-VE creates great outputs (large selection, nice graphs, charts,
> and more). Also, IES-VE creates an actual 3-D model that is nice to
> have to visualize the actual building.
>
> As far as Revit to IES plug-in, this is a different story. I have
> found it easier to take 2D Cad files and extrude the DXF files. This
> creates a much cleaner model that is much easier to change later. The
> Revit Plug-in will work, but the Revit model must be drawn perfectly
> with no errors. Also, the Revit model might need some tweaking before
> converting to IES (I.E. if the Revit model has a columns in the middle
> of a room that are surrounded by walls (common), then IES-VE will
> recognize this as a hole in the model).
>
> Next, IES also has a great support staff. If you run into any
> problems, they are easy to contact and respond pretty quickly with the
> solution.
>
> Finally, IES-VE can be used for more than just energy simulations.
> Detailed daylighting analysis, CFD analysis, regular lighting/glare
> analysis, and more can all be done within IES.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Ben Jordan, E.I.T
> Burt, Hill
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 3:01 PM,
> <bldg-sim-request at lists.onebuilding.org> wrote:
>> Send Bldg-sim mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. New IES-VE Mailing List on onebuilding.org called Virtual-sim
>> (Jason Glazer)
>> 2. Re: IES-VE Energy (CARNEY Ronan)
>> 3. Re: IES-VE Energy (Stirling Walkes)
>> 4. Re: IES-VE Energy (Varkie C Thomas)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:52:16 -0600
>> From: Jason Glazer <jglazer at gard.com>
>> Subject: [Bldg-sim] New IES-VE Mailing List on onebuilding.org called
>> Virtual-sim
>> To: bldg-sim at onebuilding.org
>> Message-ID: <49A1BB00.70406 at gard.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Virtual-sim is a new mailing list is for everyone that uses
>> the IES<VE> Virtual-Environment programs. Virtual-sim is a
>> new mailing list on onebuilding.org joining program specific
>> mailing lists for eQUEST, HAP, and TRACE. Users at every
>> experience level are encouraged to join this mailing list
>> and share their questions and knowledge. The mailing list
>> will be a user-to-user support forum for IES<VE>, VE-ware
>> and ApacheSim and other software by Integrated Environmental
>> Solutions Ltd.
>>
>> To subscribe please send a blank email to:
>>
>> Virtual-sim-subscribe at onebuilding.org
>>
>> More information about IES<VE> is available at:
>>
>> http://www.iesve.com
>>
>> Please let me know if you have any questions.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> --
>> Jason Glazer, P.E., GARD Analytics, 90.1 ECB chair
>> Admin for onebuilding.org building performance mailing lists
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:13:19 +1000
>> From: "CARNEY Ronan" <Ronan.CARNEY at projectservices.qld.gov.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy
>> To: "Stirling Walkes" <Swalkes at smseng.com>, "Varkie C Thomas"
>> <thomasv at iit.edu>, "Bldg-Sim"
> <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> Message-ID:
>>
> <29A586CC937CB64F8FE7AD0370913D23059CC6 at VBNEEXS01.dpwservices.dpw.qld.go
> v.au>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> I strongly advise you not to use this option. If Revit, looses a
>> room,
> it's likely that you'll not even notice it. I created a full model
> of a
> 50million project within Revit from the Architectural model. Loaded it
> into IES and lost 75% of all rooms, that's over 200 rooms, all lost.
>> My solution is, purchase the software, draw all model from sratch
> within IES of Sketchup, Stay away from IES with Revit, it always falls
> over or is incorrect or requires 3 or 4 times of repetitive data entry
> e.g. construction properties.
>>
>> Kind Regards
>> Ronan Carney
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Stirling
> Walkes
>> Sent: Mon 23/02/2009 12:56 AM
>> To: Varkie C Thomas; Bldg-Sim
>> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy
>>
>>
>> REVIT MEP comes with the IES VE load analysis built in. But I think
> you need to have the full version to analyze the energy consumption
> based on systems and lighting etc.
>>
>> I have found that as long as the spaces have been set up correctly by
> the architect in Revit generating the geometry for the energy model is
> done by Revit and takes a couple of minutes to determine interior vs
> exterior walls/windows etc. (depending on the size of the building and
> the capacity of the computer doing the calculations). The
> calculations
> will generate a room by room load calculation which can be imported
> back
> to the model and allocated to the individual spaces.
>>
>> Vs doing an import of the Autocad drawing and tracing the shape,
> locating windows etc. Time savings can be significant.
>>
>> However, I have only yet used it for loads for equipment sizing and
> not for an energy simulation.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> V. Stirling Walkes, P.Eng., LEED AP
>> Partner
>> SMS Engineering Ltd.
>> 770 Bradford Street
>> Winnipeg MB R3H 0N3 Canada
>> phone: 204.775.0291
>> fax: 204.772.2153
>> Swalkes at smseng.com
>>
>>
>>>>> Varkie C Thomas <thomasv at iit.edu> 2/21/2009 4:22 PM >>>
>>
>>
>> I have been asked by an ME/AE firm to check out IES-VE Energy. This
> firm makes extensive use of the Revit programs for design.
>>
>> I downloaded the trial version of 'IES-VE-Ware/Toolkits 5.9 Setup'
> and tried to run/install it and I got the following message: "You
> require an installation of Google Stetchup 6, etc., to install VE-
> Ware"
>>
>> I downloaded 'IES<VE>5.9 SketchUp Plug-in Setup' and tried to install
> this and got the following message: "You must have a copy of
> IES<Virtual Environment>5.9 installed before attempting to install
> this
> plug-in"
>>
>> I am interested in trying out IES-VE Energy component only. Is there
> a trial version for this? Is there a tutorial that I can refer to
> when
> trying to learn how to use this program?
>>
>> The IES-VE website shows 2 engineering clients - Syska Hennessy and
> Vanderweil Engineering. How many building projects have been analyzed
> with IES-VE for energy performance by US AE firms?
>>
>> Why use IES-VE-Energy when DOE2.1E and eQUEST are free and TRACE and
> HAP are inexpensive with excellent customer support?
>>
>> Is there statistical data by type & size of project, on the energy
> programs used in the US for code compliance and LEED certification?
>>
>> Varkie Thomas
>>
>> ***************************** Disclaimer
>> *****************************
>>
>> The contents of this electronic message and any attachments are
> intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or
> confidential information. They may only be used for the purposes for
> which they were supplied. If you are not the addressee, you are
> notified
> that any transmission, distribution, downloading, printing or
> photocopying of the contents of this message or attachments is
> strictly
> prohibited. The privilege of confidentiality attached to this message
> and attachments is not waived, lost or destroyed by reason of mistaken
> delivery to you. If you receive this message in error please notify
> the
> sender by return e-mail or telephone.
>>
>> Please note: the Department of Public Works carries out automatic
>> software scanning, filtering and blocking of E-mails and attachments
> (including emails of a
>> personal nature) for detection of viruses, malicious code, SPAM,
> executable programs or content it deems
>> unacceptable. All reasonable precautions will be taken to respect the
> privacy of
>> individuals as outlined in the DPW Privacy Plan. Personal information
> will only be used for official
>> purposes, e.g. monitoring Departmental Personnel's compliance with
> Departmental Policies.
>> Personal information will not be divulged or disclosed to others,
> unless as required by Departmental
>> Policy and/or State or Commonwealth Law.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:09:55 -0600
>> From: "Stirling Walkes" <Swalkes at smseng.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy
>> To: "Varkie C Thomas" <thomasv at iit.edu>, "Bldg-Sim"
>> <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>, "CARNEY Ronan"
>> <Ronan.CARNEY at projectservices.qld.gov.au>
>> Message-ID: <49A28403.C152.004B.0 at smseng.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Thanks for the tip Ronan. Did you create a room schedule within
>> Revit
> to monitor rooms and loads within rooms to ensure that they have been
> carried over properly? Or have you found that it isn't worth the
> time?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Stirling
>>
>>
>>>>> "CARNEY Ronan" <Ronan.CARNEY at projectservices.qld.gov.au> 2/22/2009
> 5:13 PM >>>
>> I strongly advise you not to use this option. If Revit, looses a
>> room,
> it's likely that you'll not even notice it. I created a full model
> of a
> 50million project within Revit from the Architectural model. Loaded it
> into IES and lost 75% of all rooms, that's over 200 rooms, all lost.
>> My solution is, purchase the software, draw all model from sratch
> within IES of Sketchup, Stay away from IES with Revit, it always falls
> over or is incorrect or requires 3 or 4 times of repetitive data entry
> e.g. construction properties.
>>
>> Kind Regards
>> Ronan Carney
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Stirling
> Walkes
>> Sent: Mon 23/02/2009 12:56 AM
>> To: Varkie C Thomas; Bldg-Sim
>> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy
>>
>>
>> REVIT MEP comes with the IES VE load analysis built in. But I think
> you need to have the full version to analyze the energy consumption
> based on systems and lighting etc.
>>
>> I have found that as long as the spaces have been set up correctly by
> the architect in Revit generating the geometry for the energy model is
> done by Revit and takes a couple of minutes to determine interior vs
> exterior walls/windows etc. (depending on the size of the building and
> the capacity of the computer doing the calculations). The
> calculations
> will generate a room by room load calculation which can be imported
> back
> to the model and allocated to the individual spaces.
>>
>> Vs doing an import of the Autocad drawing and tracing the shape,
> locating windows etc. Time savings can be significant.
>>
>> However, I have only yet used it for loads for equipment sizing and
> not for an energy simulation.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> V. Stirling Walkes, P.Eng., LEED AP
>> Partner
>> SMS Engineering Ltd.
>> 770 Bradford Street
>> Winnipeg MB R3H 0N3 Canada
>> phone: 204.775.0291
>> fax: 204.772.2153
>> Swalkes at smseng.com
>>
>>
>>>>> Varkie C Thomas <thomasv at iit.edu> 2/21/2009 4:22 PM >>>
>>
>>
>> I have been asked by an ME/AE firm to check out IES-VE Energy. This
> firm makes extensive use of the Revit programs for design.
>>
>> I downloaded the trial version of 'IES-VE-Ware/Toolkits 5.9 Setup'
> and tried to run/install it and I got the following message: "You
> require an installation of Google Stetchup 6, etc., to install VE-
> Ware"
>>
>> I downloaded 'IES<VE>5.9 SketchUp Plug-in Setup' and tried to install
> this and got the following message: "You must have a copy of
> IES<Virtual Environment>5.9 installed before attempting to install
> this
> plug-in"
>>
>> I am interested in trying out IES-VE Energy component only. Is there
> a trial version for this? Is there a tutorial that I can refer to
> when
> trying to learn how to use this program?
>>
>> The IES-VE website shows 2 engineering clients - Syska Hennessy and
> Vanderweil Engineering. How many building projects have been analyzed
> with IES-VE for energy performance by US AE firms?
>>
>> Why use IES-VE-Energy when DOE2.1E and eQUEST are free and TRACE and
> HAP are inexpensive with excellent customer support?
>>
>> Is there statistical data by type & size of project, on the energy
> programs used in the US for code compliance and LEED certification?
>>
>> Varkie Thomas
>>
>> ***************************** Disclaimer
>> *****************************
>>
>> The contents of this electronic message and any attachments are
> intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or
> confidential information. They may only be used for the purposes for
> which they were supplied. If you are not the addressee, you are
> notified
> that any transmission, distribution, downloading, printing or
> photocopying of the contents of this message or attachments is
> strictly
> prohibited. The privilege of confidentiality attached to this message
> and attachments is not waived, lost or destroyed by reason of mistaken
> delivery to you. If you receive this message in error please notify
> the
> sender by return e-mail or telephone.
>>
>> Please note: the Department of Public Works carries out automatic
>> software scanning, filtering and blocking of E-mails and attachments
> (including emails of a
>> personal nature) for detection of viruses, malicious code, SPAM,
> executable programs or content it deems
>> unacceptable. All reasonable precautions will be taken to respect the
> privacy of
>> individuals as outlined in the DPW Privacy Plan. Personal information
> will only be used for official
>> purposes, e.g. monitoring Departmental Personnel's compliance with
> Departmental Policies.
>> Personal information will not be divulged or disclosed to others,
> unless as required by Departmental
>> Policy and/or State or Commonwealth Law.
>>
>> Thank you.
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:23:19 -0600
>> From: Varkie C Thomas <thomasv at iit.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy
>> To: Stirling Walkes <Swalkes at smseng.com>
>> Cc: Bldg-Sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>> Message-ID: <e078ecc2e77c.e77ce078ecc2 at iit.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Thanks for the responses and telephone calls. Most of them were sent
> to me directly. The general picture I got was that TRACE700 does a
> better job of importing Revit data than IESVE. Importing and other
> problems can be fixed. Is the IESVE program in metric only?.
>> Varkie
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Stirling Walkes <Swalkes at smseng.com>
>> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:11 am
>> Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy
>> To: Varkie C Thomas <thomasv at iit.edu>, Bldg-Sim
> <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>, CARNEY Ronan
> <Ronan.CARNEY at projectservices.qld.gov.au>
>>
>>> Thanks for the tip Ronan. Did you create a room schedule within
>>> Revit to monitor rooms and loads within rooms to ensure that they
>>> have been carried over properly? Or have you found that it isn't
>>> worth the time?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Stirling
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> "CARNEY Ronan" <Ronan.CARNEY at projectservices.qld.gov.au>
>>> 2/22/2009 5:13 PM >>>
>>> I strongly advise you not to use this option. If Revit, looses a
>>> room, it's likely that you'll not even notice it. I created a full
>>> model of a 50million project within Revit from the Architectural
>>> model. Loaded it into IES and lost 75% of all rooms, that's over
>>> 200 rooms, all lost.
>>> My solution is, purchase the software, draw all model from sratch
>>> within IES of Sketchup, Stay away from IES with Revit, it always
>>> falls over or is incorrect or requires 3 or 4 times of repetitive
>>> data entry e.g. construction properties.
>>>
>>> Kind Regards
>>> Ronan Carney
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Stirling
>>> WalkesSent: Mon 23/02/2009 12:56 AM
>>> To: Varkie C Thomas; Bldg-Sim
>>> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy
>>>
>>>
>>> REVIT MEP comes with the IES VE load analysis built in. But I
>>> think you need to have the full version to analyze the energy
>>> consumption based on systems and lighting etc.
>>>
>>> I have found that as long as the spaces have been set up correctly
>>> by the architect in Revit generating the geometry for the energy
>>> model is done by Revit and takes a couple of minutes to determine
>>> interior vs exterior walls/windows etc. (depending on the size of
>>> the building and the capacity of the computer doing the
>>> calculations). The calculations will generate a room by room load
>>> calculation which can be imported back to the model and allocated
>>> to the individual spaces.
>>>
>>> Vs doing an import of the Autocad drawing and tracing the shape,
>>> locating windows etc. Time savings can be significant.
>>>
>>> However, I have only yet used it for loads for equipment sizing
>>> and not for an energy simulation.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> V. Stirling Walkes, P.Eng., LEED AP
>>> Partner
>>> SMS Engineering Ltd.
>>> 770 Bradford Street
>>> Winnipeg MB R3H 0N3 Canada
>>> phone: 204.775.0291
>>> fax: 204.772.2153
>>> Swalkes at smseng.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> Varkie C Thomas <thomasv at iit.edu> 2/21/2009 4:22 PM >>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been asked by an ME/AE firm to check out IES-VE Energy.
>>> This firm makes extensive use of the Revit programs for design.
>>>
>>> I downloaded the trial version of 'IES-VE-Ware/Toolkits 5.9
>>> Setup' and tried to run/install it and I got the following
>>> message: "You require an installation of Google Stetchup 6, etc.,
>>> to install VE-Ware"
>>>
>>> I downloaded 'IES<VE>5.9 SketchUp Plug-in Setup' and tried to
>>> install this and got the following message: "You must have a copy
>>> of IES<Virtual Environment>5.9 installed before attempting to
>>> install this plug-in"
>>>
>>> I am interested in trying out IES-VE Energy component only. Is
>>> there a trial version for this? Is there a tutorial that I can
>>> refer to when trying to learn how to use this program?
>>>
>>> The IES-VE website shows 2 engineering clients - Syska Hennessy
>>> and Vanderweil Engineering. How many building projects have been
>>> analyzed with IES-VE for energy performance by US AE firms?
>>>
>>> Why use IES-VE-Energy when DOE2.1E and eQUEST are free and TRACE
>>> and HAP are inexpensive with excellent customer support?
>>>
>>> Is there statistical data by type & size of project, on the energy
>>> programs used in the US for code compliance and LEED certification?
>>>
>>> Varkie Thomas
>>>
>>> ***************************** Disclaimer
> *****************************
>>>
>>> The contents of this electronic message and any attachments are
>>> intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or
>>> confidential information. They may only be used for the purposes
>>> for which they were supplied. If you are not the addressee, you
>>> are notified that any transmission, distribution, downloading,
>>> printing or photocopying of the contents of this message or
>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. The privilege of
>>> confidentiality attached to this message and attachments is not
>>> waived, lost or destroyed by reason of mistaken delivery to you.
>>> If you receive this message in error please notify the sender by
>>> return e-mail or telephone.
>>>
>>> Please note: the Department of Public Works carries out automatic
>>> software scanning, filtering and blocking of E-mails and
>>> attachments (including emails of a
>>> personal nature) for detection of viruses, malicious code, SPAM,
>>> executable programs or content it deems
>>> unacceptable. All reasonable precautions will be taken to respect
>>> the privacy of
>>> individuals as outlined in the DPW Privacy Plan. Personal
>>> information will only be used for official
>>> purposes, e.g. monitoring Departmental Personnel's compliance with
>>> Departmental Policies.
>>> Personal information will not be divulged or disclosed to others,
>>> unless as required by Departmental
>>> Policy and/or State or Commonwealth Law.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
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>> Bldg-sim mailing list
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> The contents of this electronic message and any attachments are
> intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or
> confidential information. They may only be used for the purposes for
> which they were supplied. If you are not the addressee, you are
> notified that any transmission, distribution, downloading, printing
> or photocopying of the contents of this message or attachments is
> strictly prohibited. The privilege of confidentiality attached to
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