[Bldg-sim] Infiltration Schedule
Jesse Thompson
jesse at kaplanthompson.com
Tue Feb 10 07:20:31 PST 2009
Best thing I have read lately on real world commercial scale air
infiltration is in the Journal of Building Enclosure Design, Winter
2007 issue: http://www.nibs.org/jbed.html
PDF here: http://www.nibs.org/JBED/JBED_Winter07.pdf
Jesse Thompson, AIA, LEED AP
Kaplan Thompson Architects
424 Fore St
Portland, ME 04101
p: 207 842-2888
f: 207 842-2828
jesse at kaplanthompson.com
http://www.kaplanthompson.com
On Feb 9, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Andy hoover wrote:
> Hey folks:
>
> We have done similar things to control outside air and create
> positive pressure then look at the losses in a variety of ways and
> have seen reports of work done by various labs and even reports on
> whole buildings with the giant tractor trailer blower unit. They
> always see much much higher than predicted/designed infiltration and
> higher energy cost/comfort issues but not always significantly (5%
> is significant to me but not to all) higher cost in heavy cooling
> areas due to what seems to be both the infiltration that occurs when
> the conditioned air is cooler/less humid on the interior and the
> comparatively low cost to cool.
>
> We have very limited experience in industrial but in office,
> commercial, retail, and similar have seen from James numbers (his
> range is mostly the low end we have seen) to 5 times them and even
> more. The numbers tend to go completely crazy when we have tried
> to look at real world effects and apply parameters such as actual in
> use conditions for office, commercial or retail buildings. We have
> never seen an existing building that was at the ‘design
> parameters’. I am not saying that as a negative toward anyone who
> did or does design nor about the assumptions in the models but am
> saying that it needs to be looked at as we need to end up saving
> most of our energy, carbon, cost, whatever all you care about
> through work on existing structures. We can not build our way to
> enough savings of any type particularly in a 10 to 30 year horizon.
>
> I would not presume no infiltration at plenums (2 years after a
> building is up seal up an area, pressurize it and see what you get)
> and would assume significant infiltration at penthouses, elevator
> rooms, and so on.
>
> Eric, my thought would be that if you are going to apply a number
> across the board, so to speak, you may want to go to .20 bare
> minimum and I would suggest .25. My bet is James does a lot of .4
> to .5 in design work with very tight structures.
>
> We have not yet done anything specifically following the letter of
> the newer large building standards/suggestions for testing from ASTM/
> ASHRAE et al.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy
>
> Andy Hoover
> Principal
> The BEST Consultant, Inc.
> Office: 678-200-7648
> Fax:678-827-0574
> Cell: 678-793-1159
>
> www.thebestconsultant.com
>
>
> This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this
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>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> ] On Behalf Of James V. Dirkes II P.E.
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 9:12 AM
> To: 'Doug Maddox'; 'Eric Studer'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Infiltration Schedule
>
> You don't really do blower door testing on 100,000 - 1,000,000 sq.ft
> factory buildings, however we did something that was roughly
> equivalent. My company's air handler product normally used a
> control loop that monitored differential pressure between the
> building and the outdoors, and then controlled the outdoor air
> amount to maintain a slight (0.01") positive pressure. Since the
> controls were very often digital and we could obtain data from the
> AHU performance, we knew what the outdoor air control was doing over
> the course of a day, or weeks, or months.
>
> From that information, we created some "rules of thumb" that were
> applied to new projects.
>
> The Building Performance Team
> James V. Dirkes II, P.E., LEED AP
> 1631 Acacia Drive NW
> Grand Rapids, MI 49504
> 616 450 8653
>
>
>
> From: Doug Maddox [mailto:DougM at TWGI.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:59 AM
> To: James V. Dirkes II P.E.; Eric Studer; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Infiltration Schedule
> Is the 0.2 to 0.5 ACH based on blower door testing? Did you apply
> some sort of conversion to get from the blower door pressure
> differential to a typical real world pressure?
>
> Doug Maddox
>
> The Weidt Group
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> ] On Behalf OfJames V. Dirkes II P.E.
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:30 AM
> To: 'Eric Studer'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Infiltration Schedule
>
> Dear Andy and Eric,
>
> My past experience with industrial buildings (manufacturing,
> assembly, warehouses, etc) indicates that a good building has an
> AVERAGE winter AC/hr of ~0.2. Poor buildings are on the order of
> 0.5 (or more!)
>
> This doesn't address residences (which often have much higher
> infiltration rates) offices or high rises, but it may be helpful.
> Most of the literature I'm familiar with indicates that infiltration
> is normally a lot higher than is generally assumed. My experience
> confirms that.
>
> The Building Performance Team
> James V. Dirkes II, P.E., LEED AP
> 1631 Acacia Drive NW
> Grand Rapids, MI 49504
> 616 450 8653
>
>
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> ] On Behalf Of Eric Studer
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 6:42 AM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Infiltration Schedule
> I tend to model an air exchange rate of 0.15 ACH in perimeter spaces
> during unoccupied hours (e.g. outside air fans are off with dampers
> closed) for new buildings (even if they have air barriers).
> Vestibules, conditioned loading docks, etc usually get higher air
> change rates. Zones with no exterior exposure should not be modeled
> as having any infiltration since there is not a way for air at
> outside conditions to make it to these zones. I assume no
> infiltration into plenum zones.
>
> I am curious to know whether or not this seems reasonable based on
> real world experience. Andy, any thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eric
>
> Ph: (781) 431-1100 ext 12
> Fax: (781) 431-1109
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> ] On Behalf Of Andy hoover
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:07 PM
> To: 'Talbert, Joshua'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Infiltration Schedule
>
> Hi all:
>
> We do building envelope consulting and are very curious as to what
> folks do and what rates they use whatever approach. When looking at
> buildings we find that most infiltrate much more in the real world
> than designers estimate and that the fluctuations are far greater
> than predicted. We would also love it if anyone has any experiences
> which can be shared.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy
>
> Andy Hoover
> Principal
> The BEST Consultant, Inc.
> Office: 678-200-7648
> Fax:678-827-0574
> Cell: 678-793-1159
>
> www.thebestconsultant.com
>
>
> This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this
> information for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or
> take any action based on this message or information herein. If you
> have received this message in error, please advise the sender
> immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for
> your cooperation.
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
> ] On Behalf Of Talbert, Joshua
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 10:30 AM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] Infiltration Schedule
>
> Howdy Bldg Sim peers!
>
> While working on LEED Equest simulations I find that in an effort to
> simplify I end up deleting the P-Inf and C-Inf Infiltration
> Schedules all of the time and end just use "undefined" to simulate a
> constant infiltration rate. I was curious to know if anyone uses
> the actual Infiltrations schedules, to emulate winds and or building
> pressurization, and if so do you typically achieve more energy
> savings, and do you find it worth the extra effort?
>
> Thanks all and be well.
>
> Josh
> Joshua W. Talbert P.E., LEED-AP
> Mechanical Engineer
> Hallam///ICS
> 38 Eastwood Dr. Suite 200
> S. Burlington, VT 05403
> P: (802) 658-4891
> F: (802) 658-1457
>
>
>
>
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