[Bldg-sim] indirect evaporative cooler inquiry

Justin Regnier JRegnier at enovity.com
Fri Jan 23 12:32:20 PST 2009
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Hi Douglas,

EnergyPro will model both direct and indirect evaporative cooling.  The
inputs for this can be accessed by editing the properties of the HVAC
equipment, either within the model or by creating a new piece of
equipment in the model library.  There is a tab marked evaporative
cooling that allows you to input various properties.  Don't forget to
set your cooling coil capacity to 0 if you are doing strictly
direct/indirect cooling.

Justin

Justin Regnier, EIT
Engineer
O: 916.853.9560
F: 916.962.5364
jregnier at enovity.com
www.enovity.com


11290 Point East Drive
Suite 215
Rancho Cordova, CA
95742-6243


-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:01 PM
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Subject: Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19

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Today's Topics:

   1. Perimeter Slab Insulation (Keith Swartz)
   2. Spike In Fan Power (David Kaiser)
   3. Re: Perimeter Slab Insulation (David Bradley)
   4. Re: Perimeter Slab Insulation (JRR)
   5. HAP OA Reset (Zoeteman, Mark R.)
   6. WINDOW6 integral blinds (Lam, Linda)
   7. Fan-Powered VAV system with ECM motors (Ali Nazari)
   8. Re: ESP-r Tutorial on CFD simulation (Mirsadeghi, M.)
   9. Indirect Evaoprative Cooling (Kot, Douglas)
  10. Re: Indirect Evaoprative Cooling (James V. Dirkes II  P.E.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:47:59 -0800
From: Keith Swartz <kswartz at ecw.org>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Perimeter Slab Insulation
To: "bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
	
<96D3EB3475308D48B31E7136AA62D87316651E90 at multiorgmbx.cgnetmo.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Do any of you know the reasoning behind why the 2006 edition of the
International Energy Conservation Code (IECC) removed the requirement
for insulation for unheated slabs for some climate zones? I have done a
few energy models recently with slab insulation as a potential energy
saving measure. The numbers were very small, which was expected, but
what surprised me was that the savings were negative. Adding insulation
to the slab actually increased annual energy usage (very slightly).
Cooling was unaffected, but fan energy was slightly higher during the
heating season. My quick search for research reports or other insights
to explain this came up empty. Do any of you have any thoughts? Are the
results so insignificant that the differences I am seeing in the
calculations could just be considered "noise"?

_____________________
Keith Swartz, P.E., LEED AP
Energy Engineer / Senior Project Manager
Energy Center of Wisconsin
455 Science Drive, Suite 200
Madison, WI 53711
Phone: 608.238.8276 x123
Fax: 608.238.0523
Email: kswartz at ecw.org<mailto:kswartz at ecw.org>
Web: www.ecw.org<http://www.ecw.org>

Energy Center University
Your gateway to sustainable design training and online education
programs.
www.ecw.org/university/<http://www.ecw.org/university/>

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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:29:04 -0500
From: David Kaiser <davidkais at gmail.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Spike In Fan Power
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Message-ID:
	<29d33e650901221329j208994fco79dd1c0a3c81e42c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I am completing an energy model of a building that uses fan coils in the
zones, but are extracting outdoor air from induction units that first
dehumidify and then reheat the air accordingly.  Of the air that passes
through the fan coils 15% of the air comes from the outside air, 85% is
recycled plenum air.  The way that the schedules are set up at the
moment,
the Air Handler Units should be running 24 hours at full capacity.  In
addition, the fan coil unit fans are only running 12 hours a day as an
ON/OFF schedule.

Though I believe I have specified all the fan schedules, I am seeing
varying
fan power in each month with a spike in fan power in March and April.  I
do
not have exhaust fans specified.  Where might this spike in ventilation
come
from?

Thanks,
Dave
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:35:01 -0600
From: David Bradley <bradley at tess-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Perimeter Slab Insulation
To: Keith Swartz <kswartz at ecw.org>
Cc: "bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <4978E685.90201 at tess-inc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Keith,
 If you have a cooling dominated application and a relatively cool 
average annual ground temperature, insulating underneath the slab is 
going to disrupt some amount of free cooling that you are getting. 
Adding insulation would drive cooling energy up a bit and heating energy

down. Depending on the magnitude of the heating and cooling changes, you

could see a net increase in HVAC energy over the year. An increase in 
heating energy and no change in cooling energy is a bit suspicious. You 
might look into how the software you are using models the ground heat 
transfer. There has been a good bit of work done and recently wrapped up

under IEA Task 34/45 on evaluating the ground coupling models used by 
various simulation tools.
Kind regards,
 David


Keith Swartz wrote:
>
> Do any of you know the reasoning behind why the 2006 edition of the 
> International Energy Conservation Code (IECC) removed the requirement 
> for insulation for unheated slabs for some climate zones? I have done 
> a few energy models recently with slab insulation as a potential 
> energy saving measure. The numbers were very small, which was 
> expected, but what surprised me was that the savings were negative. 
> Adding insulation to the slab actually _increased_ annual energy usage

> (very slightly). Cooling was unaffected, but fan energy was slightly 
> higher during the heating season. My quick search for research reports

> or other insights to explain this came up empty. Do any of you have 
> any thoughts? Are the results so insignificant that the differences I 
> am seeing in the calculations could just be considered "noise"?
>
>  
>
> _____________________
>
> Keith Swartz, P.E., LEED AP
> Energy Engineer / Senior Project Manager
> Energy Center of Wisconsin
> 455 Science Drive, Suite 200
> Madison, WI 53711
> Phone: 608.238.8276 x123
> Fax: 608.238.0523
> Email: kswartz at ecw.org <mailto:kswartz at ecw.org>
> Web: www.ecw.org <http://www.ecw.org>
>
> *Energy Center University
> */Your gateway to sustainable design training and online education 
> programs.
> /www.ecw.org/university/ <http://www.ecw.org/university/>
>
>  
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bldg-sim mailing list
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>   

-- 
***********************************************************************
Thermal Energy System Specialists (TESS), LLC 
David BRADLEY                      22 N. Carroll Street - Suite 370 
Partner                            Madison, WI 53703 
                                   USA
P: +1.608.274.2577 
F: +1.608.278.1475
E-mail: bradley at tess-inc.com 
Web Pages:  http://www.tess-inc.com    and      http://www.trnsys.com

***********************************************************************

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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:45:26 -0500
From: JRR <energy.wwind at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Perimeter Slab Insulation
To: David Bradley <bradley at tess-inc.com>
Cc: Keith Swartz <kswartz at ecw.org>,	"bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org"
	<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <4978E8F6.9070707 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

John Ross wrote;

    Remember the climate is usually dryer in Winter reducing the ground 
thermal coupling for most
    climates. This would probably be reversed for California and South 
Texas / Houston areas.

David Bradley wrote:
> Keith,
>  If you have a cooling dominated application and a relatively cool 
> average annual ground temperature, insulating underneath the slab is 
> going to disrupt some amount of free cooling that you are getting. 
> Adding insulation would drive cooling energy up a bit and heating 
> energy down. Depending on the magnitude of the heating and cooling 
> changes, you could see a net increase in HVAC energy over the year. An

> increase in heating energy and no change in cooling energy is a bit 
> suspicious. You might look into how the software you are using models 
> the ground heat transfer. There has been a good bit of work done and 
> recently wrapped up under IEA Task 34/45 on evaluating the ground 
> coupling models used by various simulation tools.
> Kind regards,
>  David
>
>
> Keith Swartz wrote:
>>
>> Do any of you know the reasoning behind why the 2006 edition of the 
>> International Energy Conservation Code (IECC) removed the requirement

>> for insulation for unheated slabs for some climate zones? I have done

>> a few energy models recently with slab insulation as a potential 
>> energy saving measure. The numbers were very small, which was 
>> expected, but what surprised me was that the savings were negative. 
>> Adding insulation to the slab actually _increased_ annual energy 
>> usage (very slightly). Cooling was unaffected, but fan energy was 
>> slightly higher during the heating season. My quick search for 
>> research reports or other insights to explain this came up empty. Do 
>> any of you have any thoughts? Are the results so insignificant that 
>> the differences I am seeing in the calculations could just be 
>> considered "noise"?
>>
>>  
>>
>> _____________________
>>
>> Keith Swartz, P.E., LEED AP
>> Energy Engineer / Senior Project Manager
>> Energy Center of Wisconsin
>> 455 Science Drive, Suite 200
>> Madison, WI 53711
>> Phone: 608.238.8276 x123
>> Fax: 608.238.0523
>> Email: kswartz at ecw.org <mailto:kswartz at ecw.org>
>> Web: www.ecw.org <http://www.ecw.org>
>>
>> *Energy Center University
>> */Your gateway to sustainable design training and online education 
>> programs.
>> /www.ecw.org/university/ <http://www.ecw.org/university/>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bldg-sim mailing list
>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>>   
>
> -- 
>
***********************************************************************
> Thermal Energy System Specialists (TESS), LLC 
> David BRADLEY                      22 N. Carroll Street - Suite 370 
> Partner                            Madison, WI 53703 
>                                    USA
> P: +1.608.274.2577 
> F: +1.608.278.1475
> E-mail: bradley at tess-inc.com 
> Web Pages:  http://www.tess-inc.com    and      http://www.trnsys.com
>
>
***********************************************************************
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bldg-sim mailing list
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>   
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:01:46 -0500
From: "Zoeteman, Mark R." <mrzoeteman at FTCH.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] HAP OA Reset
To: "Bldg-Sim" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
	<425CE15142917C41857CF0D16D2C4D7F086EB004 at ftchex3.corp.ftch.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Is there a way to model heating supply water outdoor air reset using
Carrier HAP program?

Mark Zoeteman, FTC&H
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:30:40 -0800
From: "Lam, Linda" <linda.lam at wspfk.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] WINDOW6 integral blinds
To: <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
	<5F662BF0C1928242BF324F3EE6C27D143CB27E at exc01sfo1us.FKUSA.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear Bldgsim:
 
Has anyone successfully built an integral blinds glazing system in
WIndow6?  I keep getting error messages below:
 
Window 5: One of the layers for Glazing System 17 does not have detailed
spectral data or the spectral data analaysis was disabled in
Preferences. This may result in incorrect results for optical properties
such as SHGC and TVIS. Custom layers with detailed spectral data can be
created in Optics and imported into the Window Library
 
Warning: Window 5. The following Therm files do not contain current
simulation results required for CR calculation.
sample-head-IntegralVentianA-45.THM
sample-jamb-IntegralVentianA-45.THM
sample-sill-IntegralVentianA-45.THM
 
CR Data will not be available unless you resimulate the Therm files with
a current version of Therm.   
 
Thanks in advance!
Linda Lam
 
 
Linda Lam, LEED?? AP
WSP Flack + Kurtz
405 Howard Street, Suite 500
San Francisco, CA 94105
Direct: 415.402.5813
Main Tel: 415.398.3833
Fax: 415.433.5311
website: http://www.wspfk.com
vCard:
http://vcards.wspfk.com/vcardloader.php?filename=flackkurtz-linda-lam-ws
pfk-com-1227040073.vcf
image:
<http://vcards.wspfk.com/usercard.php?filename=flackkurtz-linda-lam-wspf
k-com-1227040073.png>   
 
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:18:06 -0800
From: "Ali Nazari" <ali at bvm-engineering.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Fan-Powered VAV system with ECM motors
To: <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <004201c97d00$d47306f0$7d5914d0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello,

I am modeling a Fan-Powered VAV system with ECM motors. I was wondering
how
can I adjust the box's kW/cfm to take credit for the ECM motor
performance.

Regards,

Ali

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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:29:02 +0100
From: "Mirsadeghi, M." <M.Mirsadeghi at tue.nl>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] ESP-r Tutorial on CFD simulation
To: Mostapha Sadeghipour <sadeghipour at gmail.com>,
	"Bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org"
<Bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
	
<9BEB5EF43B5A4042B60C0D8179782DB3B87AD51283 at EXCHANGE10.campus.tue.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi,

The best way I found in learning how to work with CFD module in ESP-r is
to open an existing exemplar about CFD and try to make connections
between what is written in *.dfd file and the interface of ESP-r.

Good Luck,
Mohammad Mirsadeghi

________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Mostapha
Sadeghipour
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:17 AM
To: Bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Bldg-sim] ESP-r Tutorial on CFD simulation

Dear all,

Is there any available tutorial on CFD simulation with ESP-r? The
chapter in ESP-r cookbook is written to be completed at a later date.

Best,


Mostapha Sadeghipour
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:01:06 -0500
From: "Kot, Douglas" <Douglas.Kot at US.KEMA.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Indirect Evaoprative Cooling
To: <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
	
<E0205070E3E171469A57F02519D29A0E0168F1C0 at ch-kemaexch3.kemaus.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Anyone have experience with Indirect Evaporative Cooling (i.e.
Coolerado) in EnergyPro or eQuest?
 
We have a an office retrofit and are trying to model and quantify the
benefits of this system in the mild San Diego climate.  
Any help is appreciated, thanks.
 

Douglas Kot, AIA, AICP
LEED(r) AP
Sustainable Design Consultant

KEMA Services Inc.
3605 5th Avenue, Suite A
San Diego, CA 92103 
Office +1 619 688 0960 x 15515
Mobile +1 619 246 1858

douglas.kot at kema.com <mailto:douglas.kot at kema.com> 
www.kemagreen.com <outbind://2/www.kemagreen.com> 

This message may contain confidential or privileged information. If you
are not the addressee, please return the message to its sender and
delete it from your files.
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

 

 
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:18:03 -0500
From: "James V. Dirkes II  P.E." <jvd2pe at tds.net>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Indirect Evaoprative Cooling
To: "'Kot, Douglas'" <Douglas.Kot at US.KEMA.com>,
	<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <BC4DACEC08C54C38B6A6426700D85CE7 at BPT>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Doug,
 

1.	

	I'm not familiar with EnergyPro or EQuest. (EnergyPlus is my
analysis tool.)
2.	

	I AM familiar with Coolerado.
3.	

	The key to a reasonable model, in my opinion, is to get the
cooling
performance suitably high (much better than typical indirect evap) and
also
the fan HP correct, which tends to be higher than an indirect evap.
4.	

	The Coolerado folk have tested the heck out of their HMX and
have
very good equations for it's performance.  You might be able to
curve-fit
within your software....
5.	

	Finally, Coolerado is normally a blow-through application and
thus
treats fan heat differently than indirect evap.

Good luck!

The Building Performance Team
James V. Dirkes II, P.E., LEED AP
1631 Acacia Drive NW
Grand Rapids, MI 49504
616 450 8653

 

 

  _____  

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Kot,
Douglas
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 2:01 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Indirect Evaoprative Cooling


Anyone have experience with Indirect Evaporative Cooling (i.e.
Coolerado) in
EnergyPro or eQuest?
 
We have a an office retrofit and are trying to model and quantify the
benefits of this system in the mild San Diego climate.  
Any help is appreciated, thanks.
 

Douglas Kot, AIA, AICP
LEEDR AP
Sustainable Design Consultant

KEMA Services Inc.
3605 5th Avenue, Suite A
San Diego, CA 92103 
Office +1 619 688 0960 x 15515
Mobile +1 619 246 1858

 <mailto:douglas.kot at kema.com> douglas.kot at kema.com
 <outbind://2/www.kemagreen.com> www.kemagreen.com

This message may contain confidential or privileged information. If you
are
not the addressee, please return the message to its sender and delete it
from your files.
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

 

 
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