[Bldg-sim] fan & pump energy associated with packaged single zone systems
Pleasants, David
DavidP at JMPCO.com
Tue Jul 14 14:57:22 PDT 2009
I was out when this was discussed. My question is can the modeling software and community actually account for two stage ECM fan motor WSHP equipment systems (with separate DOAS) operating most of the time in the single zone at part load conditions, either off or operating on first stage with 75% design cfm and 50% design water flow?
David Pleasants
Vice President
James M. Pleasants Co., Inc.
Office 800.365.9010
Fax 336.378.2588
Direct 336.369.6012
Cell 336.580.1066
davidp at jmpco.com
Direct 336.369.6013
lindab at jmpco.com
http://www.jmpco.com
Print only necessary pages!
Can anyone give guidance on how to represent the fan and pump energy associated with packaged single zone systems with ECM fan motors such as a WSHP system with separate DOAS systemsystem so
-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of bldg-sim-request at lists.onebuilding.org
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Subject: Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 20, Issue 2
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Today's Topics:
1. Appendix G Fan Power (Vikram Sami)
2. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (Rosenberg, Michael I)
3. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (Ellen Franconi)
4. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (Jeremy Poling)
5. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (Rosenberg, Michael I)
6. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (Paul Riemer)
7. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (James Hess)
8. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (Gregg Liddick)
9. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (Nathan Miller)
10. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (James Hess)
11. Energy Engineer / Performance Analyst needed (Yager, Keegan)
12. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (Zeng, Ming)
13. Re: Appendix G Fan Power (David S Eldridge)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:02:39 -0400
From: Vikram Sami <VSami at lasarchitect.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: "Bldg-Sim" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
<55BA83825A482144A8637F9CAA981F7613E54817 at las-mail.lordaecksargent.internal>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power
for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a
PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along
with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This
equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm - which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in
this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the
return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient
the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design * Technological Expertise * Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com
<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
P Think GREEN before you print.
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:48:13 -0700
From: "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: "Vikram Sami" <VSami at lasarchitect.com>, "Bldg-Sim"
<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <77ABE1C6F7B0AE4794A66EBAB92B1F6B01B09B75 at EMAIL03.pnl.gov>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version
of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your
case. As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the
same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the
total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system, including
the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm only.
Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the
allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
www.pnl.gov
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power
for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a
PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along
with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This
equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm - which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in
this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the
return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient
the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design * Technological Expertise * Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com
<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
P Think GREEN before you print.
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:36:46 -0600
From: "Ellen Franconi" <EFranconi at archenergy.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: "Vikram Sami" <VSami at lasarchitect.com>, "Bldg-Sim"
<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>, "Michael I Rosenberg"
<michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
Message-ID: <4A4C557E020000980001FF77 at codex.archenergy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
At my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an
aggregated W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors (supply,
return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes that
your baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan
correspondence.
Ellen
Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP
Senior Energy Analyst
Architectural Energy Corporation
2540 Frontier Avenue
Boulder, CO 80301
tel. 303-444-4149
fax 303-444-4303
efranconi at archenergy.com
http://www.archenergy.com/
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov> 7/1/2009 4:48 PM
>>>
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version
of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your
case. As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the
same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the
total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system, including
the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm only.
Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the
allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
www.pnl.gov
From:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram
Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical
power for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone
with a PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula
along with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of
1.17. This equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm ? which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in
this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the
return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient
the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami,LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK& SARGENTARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design?Technological Expertise?Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website|www.lordaecksargent.com (
file:///\www.lordaecksargent.com)
P Think GREEN before you print.
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 08:40:39 -0500
From: "Jeremy Poling" <jpoling at epsteinglobal.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: "Ellen Franconi" <EFranconi at archenergy.com>, "Vikram Sami"
<VSami at lasarchitect.com>, "Bldg-Sim" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>,
"Michael I Rosenberg" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
Message-ID:
<88DC4C3C646DD5119B0D0002A537FD68154B8D5A at madison.corp.epstein-isi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This issue will start to become a problem for anyone running energy
models for LEED projects - reviewers on the new review teams are asking
to see the total fan power for the baseline broken into individual
components and reported as such in the template for Energy and
Atmosphere Credit 1. The 90.1-2004 User's Manual is also silent on the
issue; however it raises another issue. In the example (Example G-J on
page G-28) the calculations use total building supply CFM for an
80,000SF medical office building. Since the baseline is System 5 in
that example and there would be multiple zones for the baseline, it
appears that the equation should be used for the whole building only and
not individual systems. Is this how you are applying the formulas? The
user's manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes are NOT included in the
total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.
Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP
Senior Sustainability Analyst
Strategic Services
Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability
EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction
Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please
consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ellen
Franconi
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM
To: Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
At my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an
aggregated W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors (supply,
return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes that
your baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan
correspondence.
Ellen
Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP
Senior Energy Analyst
Architectural Energy Corporation
2540 Frontier Avenue
Boulder, CO 80301
tel. 303-444-4149
fax 303-444-4303
efranconi at archenergy.com
http://www.archenergy.com/
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov> 7/1/2009 4:48 PM
>>>
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version
of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your
case. As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the
same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the
total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system, including
the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm only.
Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the
allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
www.pnl.gov
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power
for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a
PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along
with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This
equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm - which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in
this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the
return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient
the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design * Technological Expertise * Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com
<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
P Think GREEN before you print.
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 07:04:45 -0700
From: "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: "Jeremy Poling" <jpoling at epsteinglobal.com>, "Ellen Franconi"
<EFranconi at archenergy.com>, "Vikram Sami" <VSami at lasarchitect.com>,
"Bldg-Sim" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <77ABE1C6F7B0AE4794A66EBAB92B1F6B01B09BFF at EMAIL03.pnl.gov>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The equation is meant for each HVAC system. The example in the User's
manual is probably not a very good one. If it was an 80,000 sf single
story building it would only have one baseline Packaged VAV system and
the example would be correct. If it were a multi-story building, there
would be one baseline Packaged VAV system for each floor and the example
would be incorrect.
The User's manual is correct that the power of the parallel fan-powered
terminal units in systems 6 and 8 is not included in the calculation.
The power of those fans is specifically called out in G3.1.3.14 at 0.35
W/cfm.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
www.pnl.gov
From: Jeremy Poling [mailto:jpoling at epsteinglobal.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:41 AM
To: Ellen Franconi; Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Rosenberg, Michael I
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
This issue will start to become a problem for anyone running energy
models for LEED projects - reviewers on the new review teams are asking
to see the total fan power for the baseline broken into individual
components and reported as such in the template for Energy and
Atmosphere Credit 1. The 90.1-2004 User's Manual is also silent on the
issue; however it raises another issue. In the example (Example G-J on
page G-28) the calculations use total building supply CFM for an
80,000SF medical office building. Since the baseline is System 5 in
that example and there would be multiple zones for the baseline, it
appears that the equation should be used for the whole building only and
not individual systems. Is this how you are applying the formulas? The
user's manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes are NOT included in the
total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.
Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP
Senior Sustainability Analyst
Strategic Services
Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability
EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction
Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please
consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ellen
Franconi
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM
To: Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
At my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an
aggregated W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors (supply,
return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes that
your baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan
correspondence.
Ellen
Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP
Senior Energy Analyst
Architectural Energy Corporation
2540 Frontier Avenue
Boulder, CO 80301
tel. 303-444-4149
fax 303-444-4303
efranconi at archenergy.com
http://www.archenergy.com/
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov> 7/1/2009 4:48 PM
>>>
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version
of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your
case. As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the
same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the
total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system, including
the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm only.
Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the
allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
www.pnl.gov
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power
for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a
PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along
with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This
equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm - which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in
this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the
return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient
the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design * Technological Expertise * Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com
<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
P Think GREEN before you print.
-------------- next part --------------
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 09:13:34 -0500
From: Paul Riemer <Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: "'Rosenberg, Michael I'" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>, Jeremy
Poling <jpoling at epsteinglobal.com>, Ellen Franconi
<EFranconi at archenergy.com>, Vikram Sami <VSami at lasarchitect.com>,
Bldg-Sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
<057EF46662FE994F8119F0A903BCD0F82B48D35497 at eml1.dunham.corp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Interesting to hear the request for fan energy delineation in the template.
The old ECB had a largely one to one relationship and Ellen's approach worked.
Appendix G is no longer one to one and that is key to understand.
Section G3.1.1 in its varied & modified versions prescribes single zone or multi-zone system types and provides constraints on system delineation.
So determine the number, types, sizes of the systems in the baseline model then go back and solve the fan power for each.
Paul Riemer
Dunham
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Rosenberg, Michael I
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:05 AM
To: Jeremy Poling; Ellen Franconi; Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
The equation is meant for each HVAC system. The example in the User's manual is probably not a very good one. If it was an 80,000 sf single story building it would only have one baseline Packaged VAV system and the example would be correct. If it were a multi-story building, there would be one baseline Packaged VAV system for each floor and the example would be incorrect.
The User's manual is correct that the power of the parallel fan-powered terminal units in systems 6 and 8 is not included in the calculation. The power of those fans is specifically called out in G3.1.3.14 at 0.35 W/cfm.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
www.pnl.gov
From: Jeremy Poling [mailto:jpoling at epsteinglobal.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:41 AM
To: Ellen Franconi; Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Rosenberg, Michael I
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
This issue will start to become a problem for anyone running energy models for LEED projects - reviewers on the new review teams are asking to see the total fan power for the baseline broken into individual components and reported as such in the template for Energy and Atmosphere Credit 1. The 90.1-2004 User's Manual is also silent on the issue; however it raises another issue. In the example (Example G-J on page G-28) the calculations use total building supply CFM for an 80,000SF medical office building. Since the baseline is System 5 in that example and there would be multiple zones for the baseline, it appears that the equation should be used for the whole building only and not individual systems. Is this how you are applying the formulas? The user's manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes are NOT included in the total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.
Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP
Senior Sustainability Analyst
Strategic Services
Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability
EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction
Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ellen Franconi
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM
To: Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
At my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an aggregated W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors (supply, return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes that your baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan correspondence.
Ellen
Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP
Senior Energy Analyst
Architectural Energy Corporation
2540 Frontier Avenue
Boulder, CO 80301
tel. 303-444-4149
fax 303-444-4303
efranconi at archenergy.com
http://www.archenergy.com/
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov> 7/1/2009 4:48 PM >>>
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your case. As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system, including the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm only. Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
www.pnl.gov
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm - which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design * Technological Expertise * Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
P Think GREEN before you print.
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 09:27:44 -0500
From: James Hess <JHess at tmecorp.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: Bldg-Sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <1D6BF369-8753-42A3-B222-309D6244FD78 at tmecorp.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
We got a review comment on a recent LEED project asking us to break down the baseline HVAC power into components even though there is no direction, or requirement, from 90.1-2004 to do so.
Can someone please help me understand why this would be necessary?
LEED guidelines say we have to model per Appendix G, but Appendix G doesn't say we have to do this.
I do not think it is necessary to do this as the baseline total fan energy consumption numbers would still be the same.
The equation in Appendix G is meant to give a total allowance (for each system) for supply, return, and exhaust fans. It doesn't matter if we break the allowance down into components or not as the total fan energy consumption remains the same. Therefore, there is no value in doing this.
If we did break the fan energy numbers into components, how would we do that given that there is no direction from ASHRAE or LEED on how to do this?
Thoughts?
Regards,
James A. Hess, PE, CEM
Energy Engineer
TME, Inc.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:41 AM, "Jeremy Poling" <<mailto:jpoling at epsteinglobal.com>jpoling at epsteinglobal.com<mailto:jpoling at epsteinglobal.com>> wrote:
This issue will start to become a problem for anyone running energy models for LEED projects ? reviewers on the new review teams are asking to see the total fan power for the baseline broken into individual components and reported as such in the template for Energy and Atmosphere Credit 1. The 90.1-2004 User?s Manual is also silent on the issue; however it raises another issue. In the example (Example G-J on page G-28) the calculations use total building supply CFM for an 80,000SF medical office building. Since the baseline is System 5 in that example and there would be multiple zones for the baseline, it appears that the equation should be used for the whole building only and not individual systems. Is this how you are applying the formulas? The user?s manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes are NOT included in the total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.
Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP
Senior Sustainability Analyst
Strategic Services
Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability
EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction
Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
________________________________
From: <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ellen Franconi
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM
To: Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
At my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an aggregated W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors (supply, return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes that your baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan correspondence.
Ellen
Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP
Senior Energy Analyst
Architectural Energy Corporation
2540 Frontier Avenue
Boulder, CO 80301
tel. 303-444-4149
fax 303-444-4303
<mailto:efranconi at archenergy.com><mailto:efranconi at archenergy.com>efranconi at archenergy.com<mailto:efranconi at archenergy.com>
<http://www.archenergy.com/><http://www.archenergy.com/>http://www.archenergy.com/
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>> 7/1/2009 4:48 PM >>>
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your case. As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system, including the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm only. Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
<http://www.pnl.gov>www.pnl.gov<http://www.pnl.gov>
From: <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm ? which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design ? Technological Expertise ? Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
P Think GREEN before you print.
_______________________________________________
Bldg-sim mailing list
<http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org>http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG> <mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG> BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:35:25 -0400
From: Gregg Liddick <gliddick at theepstengroup.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: James Hess <JHess at tmecorp.com>, Bldg-Sim
<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
<767743367B06D146BCE70D51BC4A1781F3D6C5C8 at MAILR004.mail.lan>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi James,
As far as I?m concerned the main point of having project teams break the fan energy down into components is to ensure that the baseline fan power derived from the fan supply volume using Table G3.1.2.9 is not all attributed to supply fans if exhaust fans, return fans, etc. exist.
Regarding the breakdown, as far as I know you?re correct in that there is no guidance on that and what I do is take the percentages based on total fan power from the proposed case and apply it to the baseline case (e.g. 70% supply, 20% return, 10% exhaust).
Best Regards,
Gregg Liddick, EIT, LEED? AP
The Epsten Group, Inc.
429 Edgewood Avenue
Atlanta GA 30312
Phone: 404-577-0370 ext. 102
Fax: 404-577-1739
www.theepstengroup.com<http://www.theepstengroup.com>
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
This transmission is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, you are NOT authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication, its attachments or any part of them. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this communication from all computers. This communication does not form any contractual obligation on behalf of the sender, the sender's employer, or the employer's parent company, affiliates or subsidiaries.
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James Hess
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:28 AM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
We got a review comment on a recent LEED project asking us to break down the baseline HVAC power into components even though there is no direction, or requirement, from 90.1-2004 to do so.
Can someone please help me understand why this would be necessary?
LEED guidelines say we have to model per Appendix G, but Appendix G doesn't say we have to do this.
I do not think it is necessary to do this as the baseline total fan energy consumption numbers would still be the same.
The equation in Appendix G is meant to give a total allowance (for each system) for supply, return, and exhaust fans. It doesn't matter if we break the allowance down into components or not as the total fan energy consumption remains the same. Therefore, there is no value in doing this.
If we did break the fan energy numbers into components, how would we do that given that there is no direction from ASHRAE or LEED on how to do this?
Thoughts?
Regards,
James A. Hess, PE, CEM
Energy Engineer
TME, Inc.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:41 AM, "Jeremy Poling" <jpoling at epsteinglobal.com<mailto:jpoling at epsteinglobal.com>> wrote:
This issue will start to become a problem for anyone running energy models for LEED projects ? reviewers on the new review teams are asking to see the total fan power for the baseline broken into individual components and reported as such in the template for Energy and Atmosphere Credit 1. The 90.1-2004 User?s Manual is also silent on the issue; however it raises another issue. In the example (Example G-J on page G-28) the calculations use total building supply CFM for an 80,000SF medical office building. Since the baseline is System 5 in that example and there would be multiple zones for the baseline, it appears that the equation should be used for the whole building only and not individual systems. Is this how you are applying the formulas? The user?s manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes are NOT included in the total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.
Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP
Senior Sustainability Analyst
Strategic Services
Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability
EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction
Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ellen Franconi
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM
To: Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
At my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an aggregated W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors (supply, return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes that your baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan correspondence.
Ellen
Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP
Senior Energy Analyst
Architectural Energy Corporation
2540 Frontier Avenue
Boulder, CO 80301
tel. 303-444-4149
fax 303-444-4303
efranconi at archenergy.com<mailto:efranconi at archenergy.com>
http://www.archenergy.com/
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>> 7/1/2009 4:48 PM >>>
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your case. As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system, including the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm only. Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
www.pnl.gov<http://www.pnl.gov>
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm ? which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design ? Technological Expertise ? Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
P Think GREEN before you print.
_______________________________________________
Bldg-sim mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 08:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Nathan Miller" <nathanm at rushingco.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: "'James Hess'" <JHess at tmecorp.com>, "'Bldg-Sim'"
<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID: <004e01c9fb2b$165fea80$431fbf80$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I think a lot of us were making the mistake of applying the total calculated
fan power/cfm to both the supply and return/exhaust fans (mostly due to
ambiguous wording in 90.1). Forcing the modeler to explicitly divide up the
calculated fan power allows the reviewer to more easily check that the
energy was properly accounted for.
I played around on one project and found that unsurprisingly the fan energy
didn?t change whether I put it all in supply air and none in exhaust, or
divided it up based on the relative CFMs.
Nathan Miller
Senior Energy Engineer/Mechanical Engineer
direct: 206.788.4577
fax: 206.285.7111
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James Hess
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:28 AM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
We got a review comment on a recent LEED project asking us to break down the
baseline HVAC power into components even though there is no direction, or
requirement, from 90.1-2004 to do so.
Can someone please help me understand why this would be necessary?
LEED guidelines say we have to model per Appendix G, but Appendix G doesn't
say we have to do this.
I do not think it is necessary to do this as the baseline total fan energy
consumption numbers would still be the same.
The equation in Appendix G is meant to give a total allowance (for each
system) for supply, return, and exhaust fans. It doesn't matter if we break
the allowance down into components or not as the total fan energy
consumption remains the same. Therefore, there is no value in doing this.
If we did break the fan energy numbers into components, how would we do that
given that there is no direction from ASHRAE or LEED on how to do this?
Thoughts?
Regards,
James A. Hess, PE, CEM
Energy Engineer
TME, Inc.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:41 AM, "Jeremy Poling" <jpoling at epsteinglobal.com>
wrote:
This issue will start to become a problem for anyone running energy models
for LEED projects ? reviewers on the new review teams are asking to see the
total fan power for the baseline broken into individual components and
reported as such in the template for Energy and Atmosphere Credit 1. The
90.1-2004 User?s Manual is also silent on the issue; however it raises
another issue. In the example (Example G-J on page G-28) the calculations
use total building supply CFM for an 80,000SF medical office building.
Since the baseline is System 5 in that example and there would be multiple
zones for the baseline, it appears that the equation should be used for the
whole building only and not individual systems. Is this how you are
applying the formulas? The user?s manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes
are NOT included in the total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.
Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP
Senior Sustainability Analyst
Strategic Services
Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability
EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction
Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please
consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
_____
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ellen Franconi
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM
To: Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
At my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an
aggregated W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors (supply,
return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes that your
baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan correspondence.
Ellen
Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP
Senior Energy Analyst
Architectural Energy Corporation
2540 Frontier Avenue
Boulder, CO 80301
tel. 303-444-4149
fax 303-444-4303
efranconi at archenergy.com
http://www.archenergy.com/
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov> 7/1/2009 4:48 PM >>>
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version of
Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your case.
As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the same kW/cfm
to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the total allowed power
for all fans that are part of the system, including the exhaust fan. The cfm
component is based on the supply fan cfm only. Unfortunately, Appendix G
gives no direction on how to divide the allowed fan power up among the
various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov
www.pnl.gov
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power for
supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a PSZ-HP
that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along with table
G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This equates to
0.00078 kW/cfm ? which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in this
zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the return
fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient the
Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design ? Technological Expertise ? Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | <file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
www.lordaecksargent.com
P Think GREEN before you print.
_______________________________________________
Bldg-sim mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:43:10 -0500
From: James Hess <JHess at tmecorp.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: Gregg Liddick <gliddick at theepstengroup.com>, Bldg-Sim
<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
<5563FEA75053E5449978FCFFD950C81E048E47372F at tme-s09.tmecorp.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Gregg,
I appreciate the response.
I see what they are trying to do; I just don?t think it needs to be done. The total fan energy consumption (supply, return, exhaust) is the same for comparison purposes to the proposed design model.
On many projects, the baseline system is different than the proposed --> packaged single zone systems versus packaged VAV RTU, for example. Therefore, there would not be any return fans on the packaged single zone systems to allocate fan energy to. I don?t know if anyone is looking at this to that level of detail. Another separate issue is that the Appendix G fan energy equation way over estimates the fan energy associated with real packaged single zone systems, but I?ve posted previously on that issue and won?t bore anyone with those details.
I guess the bottom line is that if GBCI absolutely insists that the baseline fan energy be broken into components, we?ll come up with some kind of percentage allocation, similar to what you have done, as applied to the total baseline fan energy consumption for the sole purpose of filling out the template.
Thanks! ?
Regards,
JAH
James A. Hess, PE, CEM
Energy Engineer
TME, Inc.
Little Rock, AR
ph 501-666-6776
cell 501-351-4667
jhess at tmecorp.com<mailto:email at tmecorp.com>
From: Gregg Liddick [mailto:gliddick at theepstengroup.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:35 AM
To: James Hess; Bldg-Sim
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
Hi James,
As far as I?m concerned the main point of having project teams break the fan energy down into components is to ensure that the baseline fan power derived from the fan supply volume using Table G3.1.2.9 is not all attributed to supply fans if exhaust fans, return fans, etc. exist.
Regarding the breakdown, as far as I know you?re correct in that there is no guidance on that and what I do is take the percentages based on total fan power from the proposed case and apply it to the baseline case (e.g. 70% supply, 20% return, 10% exhaust).
Best Regards,
Gregg Liddick, EIT, LEED? AP
The Epsten Group, Inc.
429 Edgewood Avenue
Atlanta GA 30312
Phone: 404-577-0370 ext. 102
Fax: 404-577-1739
www.theepstengroup.com<http://www.theepstengroup.com>
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
This transmission is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, you are NOT authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication, its attachments or any part of them. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this communication from all computers. This communication does not form any contractual obligation on behalf of the sender, the sender's employer, or the employer's parent company, affiliates or subsidiaries.
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James Hess
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:28 AM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
We got a review comment on a recent LEED project asking us to break down the baseline HVAC power into components even though there is no direction, or requirement, from 90.1-2004 to do so.
Can someone please help me understand why this would be necessary?
LEED guidelines say we have to model per Appendix G, but Appendix G doesn't say we have to do this.
I do not think it is necessary to do this as the baseline total fan energy consumption numbers would still be the same.
The equation in Appendix G is meant to give a total allowance (for each system) for supply, return, and exhaust fans. It doesn't matter if we break the allowance down into components or not as the total fan energy consumption remains the same. Therefore, there is no value in doing this.
If we did break the fan energy numbers into components, how would we do that given that there is no direction from ASHRAE or LEED on how to do this?
Thoughts?
Regards,
James A. Hess, PE, CEM
Energy Engineer
TME, Inc.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:41 AM, "Jeremy Poling" <jpoling at epsteinglobal.com<mailto:jpoling at epsteinglobal.com>> wrote:
This issue will start to become a problem for anyone running energy models for LEED projects ? reviewers on the new review teams are asking to see the total fan power for the baseline broken into individual components and reported as such in the template for Energy and Atmosphere Credit 1. The 90.1-2004 User?s Manual is also silent on the issue; however it raises another issue. In the example (Example G-J on page G-28) the calculations use total building supply CFM for an 80,000SF medical office building. Since the baseline is System 5 in that example and there would be multiple zones for the baseline, it appears that the equation should be used for the whole building only and not individual systems. Is this how you are applying the formulas? The user?s manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes are NOT included in the total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.
Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP
Senior Sustainability Analyst
Strategic Services
Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability
EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction
Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ellen Franconi
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM
To: Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
At my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an aggregated W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors (supply, return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes that your baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan correspondence.
Ellen
Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP
Senior Energy Analyst
Architectural Energy Corporation
2540 Frontier Avenue
Boulder, CO 80301
tel. 303-444-4149
fax 303-444-4303
efranconi at archenergy.com<mailto:efranconi at archenergy.com>
http://www.archenergy.com/
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>> 7/1/2009 4:48 PM >>>
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your case. As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system, including the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm only. Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
www.pnl.gov<http://www.pnl.gov>
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm ? which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design ? Technological Expertise ? Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
P Think GREEN before you print.
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:24:51 -0500
From: "Yager, Keegan" <Keegan.Yager at hdrinc.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Energy Engineer / Performance Analyst needed
To: "bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
<8234E914B98F2349916FB2D2F9CBFE7C0429ADFDA3 at OMAC-INEXMBX04.intranet.hdr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
HDR is in search of experienced Energy Performance Analysts to join our growing Sustainability groups in our San Francisco, CA, Omaha, NE, and Alexandria, VA offices.
The Energy Performance Analyst will work with HDR project teams to achieve energy-efficient building and system design. This will require working with designers, architects and engineers from the beginning of the design process through construction documents to help optimize energy performance. The Energy Performance Analyst will also manage or participate in energy audits of existing buildings to identify and investigate energy conservation and utility cost reduction measures. This may include site visits, walk-through assessments, energy data collection, basic financial analysis, and report writing.
Key Responsibilities: Participate in HDR charrette process and/or initial project meetings to discuss energy goals. Recommend energy-efficient design solutions and energy-efficient technologies, including lighting, HVAC, and building envelope measures. Serve as a resource to other team members regarding state-of-the art building systems such as advanced control strategies, daylighting design, natural ventilation, cogeneration, photovoltaic systems, etc. Perform energy and economic analysis of design alternatives using energy modeling software and spreadsheets. Develop detailed energy models using DOE-2 compliant software. Prepare documentation required for obtaining LEED energy credits. Meet with clients and team members to discuss energy efficient solutions for mechanical and lighting systems. Ability to manage and schedule a project in its entirety. Perform energy audits of existing buildings.
The following skills are required: Degree in Engineering, Architectural Engineering, or related field. 10+ years experience. Demonstrated practical experience, competence, and proven expertise in evaluating state-of-the-art building designs and energy-efficiency technologies. Thorough understanding of mechanical systems and controls and knowledge of the specialized requirements of highly technical facilities such as hospitals and laboratories. Ability to develop detailed DOE-2 or eQuest energy models. Experience working within the architectural design process. Understanding of energy efficient commercial lighting systems. Availability to travel out of state. Excellent writing and documentation skills. Excellent presentation skills with the ability to speak with confidence to building owners, facility personnel, contractors, architects and engineers. The following skills are preferred but not required for this position: Experience with Building Commissioning processes. License
d as a Professional Engineer. Certified Energy Manager Accreditation. Understanding of renewable energy technologies and sustainable design as applied to commercial construction. Daylighting Modeling. Identification and Analysis of Water Efficiency Measures.
HDR is an architectural, engineering and consulting firm that excels at complex projects and solving challenges for clients. More than 7,700 professionals, including architects, engineers, consultants, scientists, planners, and construction managers, in over 165 locations worldwide, pool their strengths to provide solutions beyond the scope of traditional A/E/C firms.
To apply please log on to www.work4hdr.com<http://www.work4hdr.com> or send resume to keegan.yager at hdrinc.com<mailto:keegan.yager at hdrinc.com>
Search Jobs: Keywords: Energy Performance Analyst, 090222, 090223, 090228
This position may be subject to a pre-employment drug test and drug and alcohol testing during the course of your employment based upon HDR's Drug Testing and Drug Free Workplace Policy
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:51:04 -0500
From: "Zeng, Ming" <mzeng at leoadaly.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: James Hess <JHess at tmecorp.com>, Gregg Liddick
<gliddick at theepstengroup.com>, Bldg-Sim
<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
<204431D8D6A6E345A4A76061B4DC38AB428E8479C6 at NDEXCH.ladco.int>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi James,
I actually feel the baseline model fan energy is too small. Baseline model fan usually gives 0.00078KW/cfm. For proposed fans, typically it is 0.00016-0.00018 KW/cfm/in static. With cooling coil at 1 inch, mid life filter at 1.5 (30% and 85%), energy wheel at 0.8, external static of 1.8 inch, you will get .00081 KW/CFM. And the return fan and general exhaust fans haven?t been included yet.
Do you typically have less pressure drop than listed for the system? Shall we use the clean filter or midlife filter for pressure calc?
Ming Zeng, PE, LEED? Accredited Professional
Mechanical Engineer
[http://mail2.leoadaly.com/ladlogorednl2.gif]
730 Second Avenue South, Suite 1100, Minneapolis, MN 55402-2455
T 612.338.8741 F 612.338.4840 D 612.341.9539
www.leoadaly.com<http://www.leoadaly.com> MZeng at leoadaly.com<mailto:MZeng at leoadaly.com>
EXCELLENCE BEYOND EXPECTATIONS
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James Hess
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:43 AM
To: Gregg Liddick; Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
Gregg,
I appreciate the response.
I see what they are trying to do; I just don?t think it needs to be done. The total fan energy consumption (supply, return, exhaust) is the same for comparison purposes to the proposed design model.
On many projects, the baseline system is different than the proposed --> packaged single zone systems versus packaged VAV RTU, for example. Therefore, there would not be any return fans on the packaged single zone systems to allocate fan energy to. I don?t know if anyone is looking at this to that level of detail. Another separate issue is that the Appendix G fan energy equation way over estimates the fan energy associated with real packaged single zone systems, but I?ve posted previously on that issue and won?t bore anyone with those details.
I guess the bottom line is that if GBCI absolutely insists that the baseline fan energy be broken into components, we?ll come up with some kind of percentage allocation, similar to what you have done, as applied to the total baseline fan energy consumption for the sole purpose of filling out the template.
Thanks! ?
Regards,
JAH
James A. Hess, PE, CEM
Energy Engineer
TME, Inc.
Little Rock, AR
ph 501-666-6776
cell 501-351-4667
jhess at tmecorp.com<mailto:email at tmecorp.com>
From: Gregg Liddick [mailto:gliddick at theepstengroup.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:35 AM
To: James Hess; Bldg-Sim
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
Hi James,
As far as I?m concerned the main point of having project teams break the fan energy down into components is to ensure that the baseline fan power derived from the fan supply volume using Table G3.1.2.9 is not all attributed to supply fans if exhaust fans, return fans, etc. exist.
Regarding the breakdown, as far as I know you?re correct in that there is no guidance on that and what I do is take the percentages based on total fan power from the proposed case and apply it to the baseline case (e.g. 70% supply, 20% return, 10% exhaust).
Best Regards,
Gregg Liddick, EIT, LEED? AP
The Epsten Group, Inc.
429 Edgewood Avenue
Atlanta GA 30312
Phone: 404-577-0370 ext. 102
Fax: 404-577-1739
www.theepstengroup.com<http://www.theepstengroup.com>
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
This transmission is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, you are NOT authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication, its attachments or any part of them. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this communication from all computers. This communication does not form any contractual obligation on behalf of the sender, the sender's employer, or the employer's parent company, affiliates or subsidiaries.
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James Hess
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:28 AM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
We got a review comment on a recent LEED project asking us to break down the baseline HVAC power into components even though there is no direction, or requirement, from 90.1-2004 to do so.
Can someone please help me understand why this would be necessary?
LEED guidelines say we have to model per Appendix G, but Appendix G doesn't say we have to do this.
I do not think it is necessary to do this as the baseline total fan energy consumption numbers would still be the same.
The equation in Appendix G is meant to give a total allowance (for each system) for supply, return, and exhaust fans. It doesn't matter if we break the allowance down into components or not as the total fan energy consumption remains the same. Therefore, there is no value in doing this.
If we did break the fan energy numbers into components, how would we do that given that there is no direction from ASHRAE or LEED on how to do this?
Thoughts?
Regards,
James A. Hess, PE, CEM
Energy Engineer
TME, Inc.
On Jul 2, 2009, at 8:41 AM, "Jeremy Poling" <jpoling at epsteinglobal.com<mailto:jpoling at epsteinglobal.com>> wrote:
This issue will start to become a problem for anyone running energy models for LEED projects ? reviewers on the new review teams are asking to see the total fan power for the baseline broken into individual components and reported as such in the template for Energy and Atmosphere Credit 1. The 90.1-2004 User?s Manual is also silent on the issue; however it raises another issue. In the example (Example G-J on page G-28) the calculations use total building supply CFM for an 80,000SF medical office building. Since the baseline is System 5 in that example and there would be multiple zones for the baseline, it appears that the equation should be used for the whole building only and not individual systems. Is this how you are applying the formulas? The user?s manual notes that fan powered VAV boxes are NOT included in the total fan power number as calculated from G3.1.2.9.
Jeremy R. Poling, LEED AP
Senior Sustainability Analyst
Strategic Services
Site Solutions | Operations | Sustainability
EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction
Epstein is a firm believer in sustainability. We ask that you please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Ellen Franconi
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:37 AM
To: Vikram Sami; Bldg-Sim; Michael I Rosenberg
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
At my firm, we proportion the baseline total fan power determined as an aggregated W/CFM based on the hp assigned to the fan motors (supply, return, exhaust) in the design documents. Of course this assumes that your baseline and your proposed design have a one-to-one fan correspondence.
Ellen
Ellen Franconi, Ph.D., LEED AP
Senior Energy Analyst
Architectural Energy Corporation
2540 Frontier Avenue
Boulder, CO 80301
tel. 303-444-4149
fax 303-444-4303
efranconi at archenergy.com<mailto:efranconi at archenergy.com>
http://www.archenergy.com/
>>> "Rosenberg, Michael I" <michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>> 7/1/2009 4:48 PM >>>
You have calculated the kW/cfm correctly according to the 2004 version of Appendix G. The allowance actually goes up a little in 2007, for your case. As for the second part of your question, no you do not apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fan. The calculated allowed fan power the total allowed power for all fans that are part of the system, including the exhaust fan. The cfm component is based on the supply fan cfm only. Unfortunately, Appendix G gives no direction on how to divide the allowed fan power up among the various fans in the system.
Mike
__________________________
Michael Rosenberg
Senior Commercial Buildings Energy Analyst
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT DIRECTORATE
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
2032 Todd Street
Eugene, OR 97405
(541) 844-1960
michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov<mailto:michael.rosenberg at pnl.gov>
www.pnl.gov<http://www.pnl.gov>
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Vikram Sami
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:03 PM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
G3.1.2.9 Gives you a formula for calculating system fan electrical power for supply, return, exhaust and relief. Lets sat I have a zone with a PSZ-HP that has a supply volume of 1500 cfm. Using this formula along with table G3.1.2.9 I get a fan horse power of 1.29 and kW of 1.17. This equates to 0.00078 kW/cfm ? which seems really high.
The second part to my question is assuming I have 500cfm of exhaust in this zone, do I apply the same kW/cfm to the exhaust fans as well as the return fans? It seems that the lower the fan volume the more inefficient the Appendix G values get from these tables.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
Responsive Design ? Technological Expertise ? Exceptional Service
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\>
P Think GREEN before you print.
_______________________________________________
Bldg-sim mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 11:51:39 -0500
From: David S Eldridge <DSE at grummanbutkus.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
To: Bldg-Sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
<08F46E66D6AFB042AFBE814C5EC2ED04016C3AA963 at IL-COM.il.grummanbutkus.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Only you could say whether these factors were significant in your own project.
It could be possible that if you allocated all of the power to the supply fan, which might be variable flow with a VFD for example, and operate at part-load conditions much of the time, the energy consumption might be different than if an exhaust fan was included that runs continuously at fixed load with some allocation of the power usage.
Also the program may have some variances in heat gain to the airflows from the motor heat.
I?ll second Ellen Franconi?s suggestion of apportioning by design document sizing when there are equivalent pieces of equipment in both models.
David
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James Hess
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:28 AM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Appendix G Fan Power
We got a review comment on a recent LEED project asking us to break down the baseline HVAC power into components even though there is no direction, or requirement, from 90.1-2004 to do so.
Can someone please help me understand why this would be necessary?
LEED guidelines say we have to model per Appendix G, but Appendix G doesn't say we have to do this.
I do not think it is necessary to do this as the baseline total fan energy consumption numbers would still be the same.
The equation in Appendix G is meant to give a total allowance (for each system) for supply, return, and exhaust fans. It doesn't matter if we break the allowance down into components or not as the total fan energy consumption remains the same. Therefore, there is no value in doing this.
If we did break the fan energy numbers into components, how would we do that given that there is no direction from ASHRAE or LEED on how to do this?
Thoughts?
Regards,
James A. Hess, PE, CEM
Energy Engineer
TME, Inc.
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