[Bldg-sim] Cost of LEED certification

Vikram Sami VSami at lasarchitect.com
Mon Jun 8 15:20:33 PDT 2009


 

Going back to the original question though I think (I might have misread
the two) the ACC study addresses the soft costs, while the Davis Langdon
study addresses hard costs associated with LEED, so you really can't
compare the two studies directly. 

 

Harvey makes a really good point about the building performance. I think
a large part of that goes back to usage and retro commissioning. I've
seen projects do worse than the LEED ECB predicted, but I've seen it go
the other way too (especially if the owners have energy efficiency in
mind). Very often, the users have a big part to play in which way the
energy pendulum swings.

 

I think it's important to recognize the role of the energy model as a
proactive tool rather than a reactive (or retroactive) tool. One way
LEED could improve that is to come up with best practices guidelines for
SD & DD level energy modeling. That's where the big decisions are made.
One of the drawbacks of the system right now is that you do a submittal
at the end of construction documents and call it a design submittal,
when in fact the design was mostly frozen at the start of CDs. At this
point, any reviewer comments can't be implemented into the design
process, so LEED becomes a point grabbing tool rather than the best
practices design guideline tool that it should be (and we all want it to
be). 

 

So at the risk of incurring the wrath of my entire profession (who think
that there is too much paperwork anyway), how about incorporating a true
design submittal halfway through the design process?

 

 

Vikram Sami, LEED AP 
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366 

LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361 
Responsive Design * Technological Expertise * Exceptional Service 
Please visit our new website | www.lordaecksargent.com
<file:///\\www.lordaecksargent.com\> 

P Think GREEN before you print.

 

 

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Marcus
Sheffer
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 5:45 PM
To: 'Harvey Bryan'; paul.hay at phcjamaica.com; Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Cost of LEED certification

 

On your last point I agree whole-heartedly!

 

Without entering that data quagmire, I suggest that we all need to do a
better job of understanding building energy use, gathering more data,
connecting modeled and actual performance, developing better tools,
producing more informed modelers, creating performance feedback loops
for designers, developing better metrics, etc. to make sure LEED and
other systems produce the right signals and improve performance.

 

If anyone has any thoughts on how to improve LEED to ensure better
performance feel free to pitch in and help us make it better.

 

Marcus Sheffer, Vice-Chair EA TAG, USGBC

7group

 

 

From: Harvey Bryan [mailto:Harvey.Bryan at asu.edu] 
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 5:14 PM
To: Marcus Sheffer; paul.hay at phcjamaica.com; Bldg-Sim
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Cost of LEED certification

 

Marcus and all,

 

While the cost of LEED Certification is important, equally important are
how well are LEED projects performing. The New Buildings Institute study
(March 2008) of 121 LEED NC v2 buildings certified through 2006 claimed
"on average LEED energy use 25-30% better than the National Average."
However a number of critics of this study has emerged, many of whom used
the same data that NBI used. Henry Gifford has question the methodology
used in the NBI study. The American Physical Society in their Energy
Future: Think Efficiency Report as well as Joe Lstiburek has also
questioned the NBI study. Now Dr. John Scofield from Oberlin has
completed a detailed re-examination of the NBI study and has found that
"the NBI data shows that LEED certification has done nothing to lower
building primary energy consumption and associated GHG emission." I have
attached his paper which will be presented at the International Energy
Program Evaluation Conference scheduled for Portland, OR. August 11-14,
2009. 

 

I believe that the Bldg-Sim community needs to address this issue.
Otherwise the services that we perform will become seriously questioned
by the building profession. Even if LEED buildings cost more, which I
believe most building professionals and clients would accept. It is
unacceptable if they can't deliver on energy performance. 

 

Regards

 

Harvey Bryan

 

Harvey Bryan, Ph.D., FAIA, LEED AP

Professor 

School of Architecture & Landscape Architecture

School of Sustainability

Arizona State University

P.O. Box 871605

Tempe, AZ.  85287-1605

Tel: (480)965-6094

harvey.bryan at asu.edu

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Marcus
Sheffer
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 12:38 PM
To: paul.hay at phcjamaica.com; Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Cost of LEED certification

 

Paul without seeing the articles to which you refer I really can't
comment about the comparison of the studies.  

 

Regarding cost and LEED I can offer my own personal experience on more
than 100 commercial projects pursuing LEED certification - none has even
come close to approaching the bottom end of the cost range in the ACC
study.  I have no doubt that some projects are spending 4.5% to 11% more
but frankly they are using LEED the wrong way (as a checklist of
independent variables in a point hunting exercise) and the market will
weed those practitioners out over time.  All things being equal LEED
does add cost but it is only the measuring tool.  The real question is
does a high performance green building cost more?  If done correctly my
experience is that it does not.

 

We are currently working on a school project which is borderline
Platinum.  It was bid last summer and came in significantly under budget
and attracted a $500,000 state grant.  So the actual cost is less than
conventional overall even without the grant.  Project cost drivers are
primarily a function of building type and location.  Within those broad
categories it is about design choices, one can choose to focus resources
on building performance or on other priorities.  Project teams who
choose to focus on the priorities spelled out in LEED can easily do so
within the confines of a conventional project budget.  The rest is just
a bit of paperwork.

 

The first time that an architectural firm had to use CAD drawings
instead of hand-drawn; the first time they had to comply with ADA; when
major building code changes occur - all of these things resulted in
added costs.  As experience is gained costs come down significantly and
the same thing is happening with LEED (the ACC study indicates that this
was likely to happen).

 

The real answer to your question is - "it depends" - on many factors
including team experience, priorities, project size, strategies, design
process, etc.  You really can't assume it costs more but if you do, it
probably will.

 

Marcus Sheffer

7group

 

 

From: P. Hay [mailto:phay at cwjamaica.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:33 PM
To: Marcus Sheffer; Bldg-Sim
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Cost of LEED certification

 

Thanks for the links Marcus.  

 

I have scanned the Langdon document and even looked at later articles
written on the topic.  They agree that the Langdon study is more
comprehensive but still gravitate towards the costing provided by the
American Chemistry Council. My take on the matter is that the real issue
here is not whether LEED certification costs more, but how much does it
cost: both in terms of time and expense.

 

Paul Hay

Managing Partner

PAUL HAY Capital Projects

 

Strategic Facility Planning and Implementation

 

15a Cassia Park Road

Kingston 10

Jamaica, W.I.

 

tel: 1 (876) 756-0631

cel: 1 (876) 324-4274

fax: 1 (876) 756-0631

 

web: www.phcjamaica.com

e-mail: paul.hay at phcjamaica.com

profile: www.linkedin.com/in/phcjam

twitter: www.twitter.com/phcjam

 

 

 

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Marcus
Sheffer
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 11:39 AM
To: paul.hay at phcjamaica.com; Bldg-Sim
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Cost of LEED certification

 

Anyone's first LEED project requires an investment of time to learn how
to do it.  This learning curve is somewhat steep but once you learn how
to do, actually doing it takes considerably less time.  Outside soft
costs (commissioning, energy modeling and LEED documentation) if you are
spending a dime more for construction costs than conventional for LEED
Certified or Silver then you have made an optional choice or are not
properly applying the system.  Many projects attain the Gold
certification level without an increase in construction costs.  

 

There have been several cost studies over the years than do not show
that LEED requires the type of investment purported by the American
Chemistry Council.  Here are some links:

 

http://www.cap-e.com/publications/default.cfm

http://www.davislangdon.com/USA/Research/ResearchFinder/2007-The-Cost-of
-Green-Revisited/

 

The Davis Langdon study above is far more thorough and comprehensive
than the much older ACC report which relies on a considerable amount of
early anecdotal evidence.

 

In many respects the cost of LEED comes down to what you assign to LEED
as an "extra" cost.  Many teams have figured out how to neutralize even
the added soft costs through an integrative design process. 

 

Marcus Sheffer

7group 

 

 

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of P. Hay
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 11:36 AM
To: Bldg-Sim
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Cost of LEED certification

 

I recall someone once asked about the time needed to be spent on LEED
certification.  Well, I have just come across a report prepared by
Northbridge Environmental Management Consultants
<http://www.nbenvironmental.com> entitled Analyzing the Cost of
obtaining LEED Certification, which is available online at the following
link: 

 

http://www.cleanair-coolplanet.org/for_communities/LEED_links/Analyzingt
heCostofLEED.pdf

 

It indicates that the documentation takes 226 working hours on average
to prepare and costs between US$8,000 - US$70,000 per project: the first
project costing between US$30,000 - US$60,000.

 

Paul Hay

Managing Partner

PAUL HAY Capital Projects

 

Strategic Facility Planning and Implementation

 

15a Cassia Park Road

Kingston 10

Jamaica, W.I.

 

tel: 1 (876) 756-0631

cel: 1 (876) 324-4274

fax: 1 (876) 756-0631

 

web: www.phcjamaica.com

e-mail: paul.hay at phcjamaica.com

profile: www.linkedin.com/in/phcjam

twitter: www.twitter.com/phcjam

 

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