[Bldg-sim] Coupling outdoor-indoor simulations

[leen peeters]

Mohamad,

my main concern is that you are going to end up with an extremely difficult
model: modelling in such detail both the indoor and outdoor environment is
not straightforward. You can do it, but what is the purpose?
Is there no way to simplify part of the model? Like the humidity level in
the soil. Except for the highest layers, it will probably remain almost
constant. Also the thermal conductivity of the soil, it will change with
depth due to changes in the material composing the different layers in the
soil, but as the temperature in the lower layers will not vary that much,
the conductivity could be assumed constant.
TRNFLOW or COMIS could be used for fluid flows such as air flows (the
outdoor air and the internal air flows). I would either do what David
suggest, i.e. writing a type especially suited for your purpose, or start
with something simple. Use correlations from literature on the effect of
soil and assume the wind-profile a given input. You can refine all that
afterwards.

Leen

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 3:07 PM, M F A Ramadan <M.Fahmy at sheffield.ac.uk>wrote:

>
> So, Dear Leen:
>
> It seems that the most suitable coupled softwares are TRNSYS for indoor
> simulations with TRNFLOW or COMIS for outdoor simulations.
> But what about different plants effects; should TRNFLOW/COMIS or ESP-r
> stand for
> the air-plant-soil system? I.e. water content in the soil and hence
> evapotranspiration ...etc? or should i use the 'equation writer' for
> entering
> such needed equations? If yes what about the validity and the compatability
> with the whole TRNFLOW or COMIS model?
>
> Excuse me Leen for the many questions.
>
> Best regards,
> Mohamad.
>
> Quoting leen peeters <l.f.r.peeters at gmail.com>:
>
> > Mohamad,
> >
> > Well ... for the programs I am familiar with:
> >
> > TRNSYS will need to be coupled to TRNFLOW or COMIS in order to correctly
> > account for the influence of outdoor air velocity (and thus pressure)
> > variations. The coupling is possible, however it will require paying the
> > license of both programs. I estimate a 3500 euros for both. On the other
> > hand, it has a good interface. It runs smoothly in a windows environment.
> > And it has an 'equation writer', which is in fact a very easy way to
> write
> > some simple models without going into the code.
> > ESP can handle the fluid flow levels, but I would suggest to use it on a
> > linux-platform for reasons of stability. Don't be affraid of the
> > sometimes less fancy interface. There is a good and activce ESP
> community.
> > ESP is free of charge. And parts of the code are very well documented,
> which
> > could help you understanding the models in case the 'help' is not
> detailed
> > enough. However, it is generally known as rather hard to learn to work
> with,
> > a positive and motivated spirit can manage it in a reasonable time.
> > I do not know whether IDA-ICE can handle wind induced flows. It is mainly
> > developped for evaluations of energy use and thermal comfort in
> buildings.
> > However I have never worked with EnergyPlus, it has some methods for
> > estimation of wind speed as a function of height. As it is developed in
> the
> > US, I suppose it has a well-worked out calculation strategy for
> ventialtion
> > and air flows in buildings.
> >
> >
> > There are many building energy simulation codes, check out the document
> that
> > compares many of the codes:
> >
>
> http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/tools_directory/pdfs/contrasting_the_capabilities_of_building_energy_performance_simulation_programs_v1.0.pdf
> > Note that the document is a few years old already. Some of the latest
> > developments of the different codes will not yet be incorporated in the
> > tables.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Leen
> >
> > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 5:36 PM, M F A Ramadan
> > <M.Fahmy at sheffield.ac.uk>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Many thanks Leen for your concern:
> > >
> > > My case should consider almost all outdoor effects. This include
> shading
> > > from
> > > buildings and trees, wind, temperatures, humidity, plant
> > > eveportanspiration;
> > > i.e. almost a complete environmental details.
> > >
> > > And yes, the aim to model the possible impact/influence of a
> dynamically
> > > varying
> > > outdoor situation on the indoor environment.
> > >
> > > What is your suggestions?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mohamad.
> > > -------------
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting leen peeters <l.f.r.peeters at gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > Mohamad,
> > > >
> > > > could you describe the problem in some more detail?
> > > > Is the aim to model to possible impact/influence of a dynamically
> > varying
> > > > outdoor situation on the indoor environment?
> > > > What is it you want to take into account? Shading/wind/outdoor
> > > > temperatures/....
> > > >
> > > > The complexity of your problem or even the parameters you might want
> to
> > > > consider will influence the selection of the software that one will
> > > > recommend.
> > > > So the more specific you could be, the better suited the answer you
> will
> > > get
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards,
> > > >
> > > > Leen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 11:11 PM, M F A Ramadan
> > > > <M.Fahmy at sheffield.ac.uk>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear all:
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if any one used or heard about softwares that couples
> outdoor
> > > > > (urban) and indoor thermal (comfort and/or energy) analysis in one
> > > > package.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Any guide would be appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Mohamad.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
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