[Bldg-sim] GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of garage fans?

Fred Porter FPorter at archenergy.com
Fri Nov 13 16:38:30 PST 2009


Blowing cellulose into uninsulated walls in Vermont also achieves
"significant savings." That doesn't mean uninsulated walls should be the
baseline for new construction in Vermont in 2010.
Contentiously yours,
 
Fred Porter
AEC

>>> Erik Dyrr <erik.dyrr at gmail.com> 11/13/2009 4:05 PM >>>
I don't know what section of 90.1 requires garage ventilation control
either. Nathen's assumption that CO controlled garage ventilation fans
rarely run is correct. We did a fair amount of M&V for a utility that
rebated CO control retrofits. Significant savings were achieved. Most
systems ran 24/7 and CO systems rarely operated.
I think if you clearly make the case for the baseline and take a
conservative estimate of the proposed, it will get accepted. I was
preparing to submit a project in this manner when it went bankrupt and
came to a halt!

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Nathan Miller <nathanm at rushingco.com>
wrote:



I know this is a contentious issue on bldg-sim regarding whether this
should be a allowable measure or not. 

I can tell you that on a recent office building project (LEED-NC v2.2)
we submitted for energy savings from garage CO sensors. The only comment
we got from the reviewer was that “ASHRAE mandates some sort of timed
control or CO control as part of the mandatory measures,” so we couldn’t
compare against a 24/7 constant volume system. I wish they had quoted a
specific section of 90.1 for clarity. 

We switched the baseline system to be off for ~6 hours during the night
(not in agreement with the IMC requirement for continuous air movement),
and they accepted our energy savings.

Our proposed case simply had the fans on a VFD and we created a custom
schedule, which we presented to the reviewer, to reflect that the fans
typically were at their lowest setting, and only ramped up for peak
commuting hours (small peaks for morning and lunch, big peak at end of
the day when all the cold engines start up and really put out the CO). 

It is unclear to me if you are modeling a residential garage, where
there may genuinely be 24/7 use, if you get to compare to a 24/7
constant volume system. 


Nathan Miller
Senior Energy Engineer/Mechanical Engineer
direct: 206.788.4577
fax: 206.285.7111 



From:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of James
Hansen
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:09 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org 
Subject: [Bldg-sim] GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of garage
fans?


Does anyone know if the GBCI reviewers are currently accepting ECMs
based off of garage carbon monoxide sensors to index garage fans? Or if
this can actually be included in the model with appropriate
explanation?

IMC requires constant ventilation for enclosed garages, but allows
CO-based systems to activate the fans. This equates to a substantial
energy savings since most systems like this only operate a few hours in
the morning, evening, and at lunch (other than the minimum 0.05 cfm / sq
ft continuous ventilation required by the IMC).

If we explain the system, and explain our assumptions for the use
schedules that dictate the proposed building fan schedules for the
garage, is this acceptable?

Do they require any backup support/studies for exactly how often the CO
levels will rise above acceptable limits, or is it sufficient to make a
conservative assumption that the garage fans will operate from 7-9am,
11-1pm, and 4-6pm at full load? In my engineering experience, CO-based
systems rarely run, and the circulation fans throughout the garage
(which approximate the continuous 0.05 cfm / sq ft requirements of the
IMC CO-based systems) are what really prevent isolated CO buildup.

Thanks in advance,

GHT Limited
James Hansen, PE, LEED AP
Senior Associate
1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200
Arlington, VA22201-4749
703-338-5754 (Cell)
703-243-1200 (Office)
703-276-1376 (Fax)
www.ghtltd.com ( http://www.ghtltd.com/ )

The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be
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property of GHT Limited. Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this
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