[Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification

[Grammy]

there are so many different opinions~

read the 90.1, and also 90.1 user manual and LEED requirement carefully~

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Julia Beabout <juliabeabout at yahoo.com>wrote:

> yes!  Hear! Hear!
>
> My experience with submitted LEED projects has been.
> 1. proposed and baseline use the same OA quantity
> 2. you can take credit for DCV in the proposed building; however, the
> baseline building is also required to use DCV in the spaces that are
> required to have it as prescribed in 90.1
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Karen Walkerman <kwalkerman at gmail.com>
> *To:* James Hansen <JHANSEN at ghtltd.com>
>
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Sent:* Thu, October 28, 2010 10:12:14 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification
>
> The previous discussion also touched on the topic of requirements for LEED
> models changing at the review stage (your reviewer indicating something that
> is reflected NOWHERE in the documentation).  This really makes me mad!  It
> requires extra time on our end because either:
>
> 1.  The reviewers are not properly educated as to the requirements
> 2.  The reviewers are making up requirements on their own
> or,
> 3.  The reviewers are following guidelines provided to them by someone
> (USGBC???) that has not been made available to the modeling professionals
> who must abide by these rules.
>
> --
> Karen
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:06 AM, James Hansen <JHANSEN at ghtltd.com> wrote:
>
>>  For what it’s worth, regardless of what the various publications
>> actually say, the last 5-6 projects of mine have had reviewers that had me
>> confirm that when I use DCV in the proposed design, that the baseline design
>> MUST match the minimum ASHRAE 62.1-2004 (or 07) requirements.
>>
>>
>>
>> So if you don’t have DCV (shame on you!), then your baseline and proposed
>> models can have matching OA, and it can be whatever quantity you want.
>>
>> As soon as you incorporate DCV, the baseline model has to go down to
>> minimum 62.1 rates.
>>
>>
>>
>> *GHT Limited
>> **James Hansen**, PE, LEED AP*
>>
>> *Senior Associate*
>>
>> 1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200
>>
>> Arlington, VA  22201-4749
>>
>> 703-338-5754 (Cell)
>>
>> 703-243-1200 (Office)
>>
>> 703-276-1376 (Fax)
>>
>> www.ghtltd.com
>>
>> * *
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Karen Walkerman
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:57 AM
>> *To:* Grammy
>>
>> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification
>>
>>
>>
>> There was a major discussion on this topic a few months ago, although it
>> may have been on the eQuest list-serve, I don't remember.  Try searching the
>> archives.
>>
>>
>>
>> The general conclusion was that the current requirements are that the
>> baseline and proposed design models should have the same ventilation rates,
>> BUT that this doesn't make that much sense as you could over-ventilate to
>> the point where there is no added benefit to the occupants, and major
>> additional energy use.  The discussion was primarily around LEED EA Credit
>> 1, and there was some correspondence between the simulation group and the
>> LEED credit chair.  I believe that they will be looking at modifying this
>> requirement for LEED models in the future.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Karen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Grammy <grammy.hkust at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> In my opinion, the exception is means that keep the "design value" of OA
>> same in both proposed and basline, but use DCV only in proposed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Because DCV can modify OA volume by the number of people in zone, and the
>> OA requirement is dynamics in simulation - which is too hard to keep
>> baseline same with, and also should not keep the same, if not where  does
>> the saving come from?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Paul Riemer <Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Section G.3.1.2.5 in 90.1-2007 has added an exception to the "shall be the
>> same" for models with demand controlled ventilation in the proposed that is
>> not required by Section 6.4.3.9.
>>
>>
>>
>> That alone is kind of confusing since it does not address what the values
>> should be when they are allowed to not be the same.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think they are trying to resolve the intersection of projects that use
>> more OA than Std 62.1 and utilize demand controlled ventilation.
>>
>> The most recent Trane Engineers broadcast promised more changes coming to
>> this section (as addendum DA?) but I do not have anything published to
>> reference.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Riemer
>>
>> Dunham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Kingsley, Michael
>> L.
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 28, 2010 7:50 AM
>> *To:* Grammy; Jaigath Chandraprakash
>>
>>
>> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree.  Standard 61.1 sets the minimum acceptable ventilation rate.  The
>> design ventilation rate can be higher, and the baseline rate should be the
>> same as the real design.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *Michael L. Kingsley, PhD, PE, LEED AP *| R. W. Beck, An SAIC Company
>>
>> Senior Engineer/Project Manager
>>
>> Energy, Environment & Infrastructure Solutions
>>
>> office: 315.437.1869 x205 | mobile: 315.373.4081
>>
>>
>>   ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Grammy
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:38 AM
>> *To:* Jaigath Chandraprakash
>> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification
>>
>>
>>
>> In my opinion:
>>
>>
>>
>> For LEED, the OA should increase 30% first. This is the propose
>> requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then for energy model, the baseline model should equal to proposed, which
>> means the baseline OA is also 30% more than 62.1 requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Jaigath Chandraprakash <
>> cjaigath at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>>
>> G3.1.2.5 states that minimum ventilation rates will be the same for
>> proposed building and baseline building. Does it mean that if my building
>> design OA rate is increased by 30%, my model will still be based on the
>> minimum OA required by 62.1 and is still equal to the baseline building OA?
>> Meaning my proposed building wont be penalized by supplying more OA?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jaigath
>>
>>
>>
>>
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