[Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification

[Demba Ndiaye]

Allow me to add my two cents...

My understanding and what my logic are telling me (whether they forgot to clearly specify it in the Standard or not) is that OA design values in the Baseline should never be:


1.       more than the design values in the Proposed; and

2.       more than the code-prescribed  values.

independently of DCV or this 30% over-ventilation.

______________
Demba NDIAYE

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Grammy
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:36 AM
To: Julia Beabout
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification

there are so many different opinions~

read the 90.1, and also 90.1 user manual and LEED requirement carefully~
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Julia Beabout <juliabeabout at yahoo.com<mailto:juliabeabout at yahoo.com>> wrote:
yes!  Hear! Hear!

My experience with submitted LEED projects has been.
1. proposed and baseline use the same OA quantity
2. you can take credit for DCV in the proposed building; however, the baseline building is also required to use DCV in the spaces that are required to have it as prescribed in 90.1

________________________________
From: Karen Walkerman <kwalkerman at gmail.com<mailto:kwalkerman at gmail.com>>
To: James Hansen <JHANSEN at ghtltd.com<mailto:JHANSEN at ghtltd.com>>

Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 10:12:14 AM

Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification

The previous discussion also touched on the topic of requirements for LEED models changing at the review stage (your reviewer indicating something that is reflected NOWHERE in the documentation).  This really makes me mad!  It requires extra time on our end because either:

1.  The reviewers are not properly educated as to the requirements
2.  The reviewers are making up requirements on their own
or,
3.  The reviewers are following guidelines provided to them by someone (USGBC???) that has not been made available to the modeling professionals who must abide by these rules.

--
Karen

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:06 AM, James Hansen <JHANSEN at ghtltd.com<mailto:JHANSEN at ghtltd.com>> wrote:
For what it's worth, regardless of what the various publications actually say, the last 5-6 projects of mine have had reviewers that had me confirm that when I use DCV in the proposed design, that the baseline design MUST match the minimum ASHRAE 62.1-2004 (or 07) requirements.

So if you don't have DCV (shame on you!), then your baseline and proposed models can have matching OA, and it can be whatever quantity you want.
As soon as you incorporate DCV, the baseline model has to go down to minimum 62.1 rates.

GHT Limited
James Hansen, PE, LEED AP
Senior Associate
1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200
Arlington, VA  22201-4749
703-338-5754 (Cell)
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From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Karen Walkerman
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:57 AM
To: Grammy

Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification

There was a major discussion on this topic a few months ago, although it may have been on the eQuest list-serve, I don't remember.  Try searching the archives.

The general conclusion was that the current requirements are that the baseline and proposed design models should have the same ventilation rates, BUT that this doesn't make that much sense as you could over-ventilate to the point where there is no added benefit to the occupants, and major additional energy use.  The discussion was primarily around LEED EA Credit 1, and there was some correspondence between the simulation group and the LEED credit chair.  I believe that they will be looking at modifying this requirement for LEED models in the future.

--
Karen

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Grammy <grammy.hkust at gmail.com<mailto:grammy.hkust at gmail.com>> wrote:
In my opinion, the exception is means that keep the "design value" of OA same in both proposed and basline, but use DCV only in proposed.

Because DCV can modify OA volume by the number of people in zone, and the OA requirement is dynamics in simulation - which is too hard to keep baseline same with, and also should not keep the same, if not where  does the saving come from?

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Paul Riemer <Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com<mailto:Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com>> wrote:
Section G.3.1.2.5 in 90.1-2007 has added an exception to the "shall be the same" for models with demand controlled ventilation in the proposed that is not required by Section 6.4.3.9.

That alone is kind of confusing since it does not address what the values should be when they are allowed to not be the same.

I think they are trying to resolve the intersection of projects that use more OA than Std 62.1 and utilize demand controlled ventilation.
The most recent Trane Engineers broadcast promised more changes coming to this section (as addendum DA?) but I do not have anything published to reference.

Paul Riemer
Dunham


From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Kingsley, Michael L.
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 7:50 AM
To: Grammy; Jaigath Chandraprakash

Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification

I agree.  Standard 61.1 sets the minimum acceptable ventilation rate.  The design ventilation rate can be higher, and the baseline rate should be the same as the real design.


Best regards,



Mike


Michael L. Kingsley, PhD, PE, LEED AP | R. W. Beck, An SAIC Company
Senior Engineer/Project Manager
Energy, Environment & Infrastructure Solutions
office: 315.437.1869 x205 | mobile: 315.373.4081



________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Grammy
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:38 AM
To: Jaigath Chandraprakash
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] G3.1.2.5 Clarification

In my opinion:

For LEED, the OA should increase 30% first. This is the propose requirement.

Then for energy model, the baseline model should equal to proposed, which means the baseline OA is also 30% more than 62.1 requirement.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Jaigath Chandraprakash <cjaigath at yahoo.com<mailto:cjaigath at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Hello,

G3.1.2.5 states that minimum ventilation rates will be the same for proposed building and baseline building. Does it mean that if my building design OA rate is increased by 30%, my model will still be based on the minimum OA required by 62.1 and is still equal to the baseline building OA? Meaning my proposed building wont be penalized by supplying more OA?


Thanks in advance.


Jaigath


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