[Bldg-sim] LEED 2009 Modelling - Electric Vehicles and Rainwater Cisterns

Chris Jones cj at enersave.ca
Wed Aug 10 10:56:17 PDT 2011 

I bring up the case of indoor electric vehicle 
charging stations such as one might find in a 
huge refrigerated warehouse - I toured a Loblaws 
facility.  The vehicles, batteries and charging 
systems were the latest and most efficient the 
designer could find.  The quote I heard was "20% 
more efficient, less heat, etc.".  The 
ventilation requirements for this type of 
vehicle/charging system are also less than for 
industry standard equipment.  Therefore, there 
are significant savings if there is a baseline 
for this equipment and I think the whole point of 
including such equipment would be to calculate 
the savings over industry standard and apply 
those savings as process energy credit.  At 
least, that is how I would make my case if I were submitting for LEED Canada.




At 11:08 AM 10/08/2011, David Eldridge wrote:
>Water pumps I see as a building system that 
>could be included.  Other energy users related 
>to plumbing would  be part of the building energy.
>
>Electric vehicles though I think you could make 
>a case for as an external load to the project 
>subject to your ability to quantify the 
>usage.  For example if you had a submeter and 
>billed the fleet manager for the electricity I see this as a pass-through.
>
>Without a submeter it might be harder to 
>justify, as you'd never really know how much it 
>was, and your subsequent utility bill reporting would include this energy.
>
>Let me suggest a parallel - If there was a 
>diesel tank on-site for fueling trucks it wouldn't be included.
>
>But it would be tricky to document/report if 
>that same tank fed the heating system, if you didn't log the usage for trucks.
>
>-DSE
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Aug 10, 2011, at 9:06 AM, "Dahlstrom, Aaron" 
><<mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com>ADahlstrom at in-posse.com> wrote:
>
>>Aaron –
>>
>>
>>
>>I agree with Kevin – my understanding is, if 
>>the load is served frrom the building meter and 
>>located within the LEED boundary, it should be included in the LEED model.
>>
>>
>>
>>Both items would show up in the design and the 
>>baseline, as process energy consumers.
>>
>>
>>
>>There is a tradeoff between water efficiency 
>>and energy efficiency that is made when a 
>>building decides to install its own water 
>>pressurization pumps. I’m not sure if your 
>>municipal water supply system has the 
>>controllability to reduce its water 
>>pressurization pumping energy based on your use 
>>of recovered water –“ but I haven’t had the 
>>chance to work on those systems before, and 
>>I’m not sure how those systems are assembled.
>>
>>
>>
>>If there are any efficiency measures on the 
>>rainwater pump that would be considered above 
>>“documented industry standard”, you could 
>>look at documenting a reduction from the 
>>baseline via an Exceptional Calculation method.
>>
>>
>>
>>That said, I imagine that the key thing for 
>>both loads would be determining a realistic 
>>schedule of use. You might find that the 
>>electric charging station in particular has a 
>>high peak power draw but a relatively low 
>>consumption, due to limited hours of use.
>>
>>
>>
>>In line with Kevin’s suggestion – if the 
>>electric vehicles are replacing fleet vehicles 
>>that woould “traditionally” be sourced from 
>>another fuel, there may be an opportunity to 
>>claim a different baseline and show savings. 
>>But if they are just for visitors / employees, 
>>you might just use a baseline that is identical to your design.
>>
>>
>>
>>Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED® AP
>>
>>In Posse – A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut 
>>Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
>>
>>d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 215-735-7290
>>
>>e: 
>><mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com>ADahlstrom at in-posse.com 
>>| in posse web: 
>><http://www.in-posse.com>www.in-posse.com | akf 
>>web: <http://www.akfgroup.com>www.akfgroup.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From: 
>><mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
>>[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Kyte
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:28 AM
>>To: Aaron Smith; 
>><mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED 2009 Modelling - 
>>Electric Vehicles and Rainwater Cisterns
>>
>>
>>
>>Aaron,
>>
>>
>>
>>I would think you would include these measures 
>>as an external load directly on the 
>>meter.  Each one individually is probably 
>>contributing to its own LEED point.  However, 
>>it does raise questions on how one could 
>>benchmark such measures.  For the electric 
>>vehicle charging stations, what if an on-site 
>>gas station was theorized as a base 
>>case?  Sounds like a lot of extra work, and 
>>what takes more energy to make, coal or 
>>gasoline?  Also, the rainwater pump is used for 
>>toilet rooms or for gardening?  Last I checked 
>>pumping energy to water flowers was not 
>>included, though I suppose it probably is not.
>>
>>
>>
>>Kevin
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Aaron Smith [mailto:asmith at mreng.ca]
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 10:21 AM
>>To: <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>>Subject: [Bldg-sim] LEED 2009 Modelling - 
>>Electric Vehicles and Rainwater Cisterns
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>I’m putting together a LEED 2009 Submission 
>>and the rules now state that “Both the 
>>baseline building model and the proposed model 
>>must cover all building energy components
” (pg. 286 of LEED Canada 2009).
>>
>>
>>
>>I have no trouble including computer equipment, 
>>elevators and exterior lights but we also have 
>>a rainwater cistern pump and electric vehicle 
>>charging stations.  I’m not sure if the 
>>electric vehicles should be considered 
>>“building energy components”.  As well, 
>>both technologies actually save energy 
>>elsewhere (gasoline/diesel and water utility 
>>pumping power) so I don’t think we should be 
>>penalized in our % energy cost savings by 
>>adding these two energy uses to both reference 
>>model and proposed model.  Any thoughts on these?
>>
>>
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Aaron
>>
>>
>>
>>Aaron Smith, P.Eng
>>
>>LEED® AP BD+C, M-ASHRAE, Mechanical Engineer
>>
>><image001.jpg>
>>
>>t: (902) 422-7393
>>
>>f: (902) 423-4945
>>
>>e: <mailto:asmith at mreng.ca>asmith at mreng.ca
>>
>>
>>
>>The electronic message contained herein is 
>>private and confidential, intended only for the 
>>recipient(s) specified. If you have received 
>>this message in error, please delete it and 
>>notify us immediately.  Any accompanying files 
>>are supplied as a matter of courtesy only.  The 
>>data are without warranty of any kind.  Any 
>>person or business making use of the data is 
>>responsible for confirming its accuracy and 
>>completeness.  M&R Engineering Ltd. is not 
>>responsible for edited or produced versions of this digital information.
>>
>>
>>
>>This e-mail may contain information that is 
>>confidential, privileged or otherwise protected 
>>from disclosure. If you are not an intended 
>>recipient of this e-mail, do not duplicate or 
>>redistribute it by any means. Please delete it 
>>and any attachments and notify the sender that 
>>you have received it in error. Unintended 
>>recipients are prohibited from taking action on 
>>the basis of information in this e-mail. E-mail 
>>messages may contain computer viruses or other 
>>defects, may not be accurately replicated on 
>>other systems, or may be intercepted, deleted 
>>or interfered without the knowledge of the 
>>sender or the intended recipient. If you are 
>>not comfortable with the risks associated with 
>>e-mail messages, you may decide not to use 
>>e-mail to communicate with In Posse.
>>_______________________________________________
>>Bldg-sim mailing list
>><http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org>http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a 
>>blank message to 
>><mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>_______________________________________________
>Bldg-sim mailing list
>http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a 
>blank message to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG


Chris Jones
14 Oneida Avenue
Toronto, ON M5J 2E3.
Tel.  416-203-7465
Fax. 416-946-1005

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110810/d6f5781a/attachment-0002.htm>

More information about the Bldg-sim mailing list