[Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
Nick Caton
ncaton at smithboucher.com
Tue Feb 8 11:10:15 PST 2011
This thread appears to have tangented into 3+ different directions... if
you have a new inquiry please start a new email chain =)!
Fransisco - you should refine your questions by specifying which program
you intend to use, or if your inquiry is of the "is there a program that
can do this?" variety. Air walls in eQuest/DOE2 behave as Suwon is
describing. They are a type of interior partition and will not model
heat transfer to the exterior, regardless of their geometrical location.
Chris - I use eQuest/DOE2 primarily. Please refer to recent discussion
on [eQuest-users] where I attempted to sum up air wall behavior in both
layman's and complex terms (discussion attached).
To my understanding DOE2/eQuest models do not model heat transfer
explicitly by either convection or radiation - all heat movement within
the model is calculated as a series of direct (conductive) transfers
between zone surfaces (interior and exterior) on an hourly basis. Air
walls are unique type of surface in that they have zero mass but a
relatively low conductivity (by default, approximately the same as a
single layer of 3/8" Gypsum), however this value can be modified as may
be desired.
To Rohini - My existing model calibration experience is probably limited
relative to others contributing - but I can share the general
observation/advice that your models can only ever be as accurate as your
gathered data, or lack thereof. An important corollary I want to
emphasize is that models ultimately serve a purpose, and that it's
important at the beginning of any project to identify that endgame.
Sometimes it's getting LEED points, sometimes it's advising new or
retrofit design for existing envelopes, HVAC, and/or lighting, sometimes
it's because there's academics who simply want a model they can pick up
after you to tweak to perfection as time goes on...
Defining where the model is headed in terms of intent will permit you to
define a degree/deadband of acceptable accuracy. Without doing so, you
may lose sanity/sleep to the beast before realizing you don't have a
finish line defined.
~Nick
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
Smith & Boucher Engineers
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
www.smithboucher.com
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Francisco
Massucci
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:14 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
Hi,
Is it possible to simulate an open door or a open window in a face
with outdoors boundary conditions? (only calculating heat loss or gains
to the enviroment). Example: If I apply a "infrared transparent' in a
exterior window, does it works as a open window, for energy balance
calculation?
Sorry about my english.
Thanks,
Francisco Massucci
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:14 PM, songsuwon <ssw1007 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
In DOE-2 program, "air wall" is a type of interior walls without thermal
mass effect, only for thermal resistance(0.9 hr-ft2-F/btu) between
zones. I think other similar simulation programs have also the same
function.
Suwon Song
________________________________
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:40:22 -0200
From: massucci at gmail.com
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
Hi all,
I would like to add a question to the list:
- Air wall works the same when apllied in a between zones face or in
an outdoor face?
thanks
Francisco Massucci
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Chris Yates <
chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Jeff,
You mention the use of "Real walls or air walls" between zones in your
post. I feel this raises a question on this list that I've already
enquired on this list. I apologise for raising the issue once more,
however I did not feel that the discussion resulted in a clear
conclusion of how various simulation programs may treat "Air walls" or
"virtual partitions".
I hope you don't mind me asking:
* what programs do you use mainly?
* under normal modelling practice, how would these programs treat
"air walls" with respect to:
* Conduction
* Long-wave radiation
* Short-wave radiation
* Air flow
Many thanks
Chris
On 05/02/2011 22:04, Jeff Haberl wrote:
ALSO:
Here are a few papers that shed light on the ELF/OLF proxy method and
other findings, somewhat dated but useful:
Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. "Improving Commercial Building Energy
Audits: How Daily and Hourly Consumption Data Can Help," ASHRAE Journal,
Vol. 32, No. 9, pp. 26 - 36 (September).
Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. "Improving Commercial Building Energy
Audits: How Annual and Monthly Consumption Data Can Help," ASHRAE
Journal, Vol. 32, No. 8, pp. 26 - 33 (August).
Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. "Status Report on Methods for Using Hourly,
Daily and Monthly Data to Provide Useful Information on Building Energy
Use," submitted to the New Jersey Energy Conservation Lab, Center for
Energy and Environmental Studies at Princeton University, Princeton, New
Jersey (May).
Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. "Investigating An Analytical Basis for
Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Early Results from a New
Jersey Mall," Thermal Performance of the Exterior Envelopes of Buildings
IV, ASHRAE, Atlanta, Georgia, pp. 302 - 331 (December).
Haberl, J., Komor, P., Haberl, J. 1989. "Investigating An Analytical
Basis for Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Results from a
New Jersey Mall," Center for Energy and Environmental Studies Report No.
264 (June).
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] on behalf of Jeff Haberl [
jhaberl at tamu.edu]
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 3:44 PM
To: Carol Gardner; R B
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
Rohini,
Zoning a building is still an art form. There are very few papers that
have looked into this with any rigor.
In one thesis we did on the Zachry building, which was the basis for the
Predictor Shootout I and II, we looked at 1, 2, 5 and actual zoning on
the building. What we saw was that, in general, the centroid of the
"cloud" of data points remained about the same. However, the scatter in
the cloud became more pronounced at we added more zones.
So, if all the zones in the floor are being operated the same, I'd use
1, 2 or 5 zones per floor, depending on the functions of what's going on
in each zone. Real walls or air walls between the zones usually get the
job done.
The quickest way to get the light and receptacle loads on a real
building is using "blink" tests, which can be done on a Saturday, with
walkie talkies, and a data logger on the whole-building electric feed,
possibly some sub feeds. I first heard of this test from Todd Taylor at
PNNL. We've used it to help resolved motor loads, lighting loads,
receptacles, etc. Seems to work pretty well.
There are also several ways to get the plug loads, including: by proxy,
by weather-day-type profiles, by daily readings, and a method that uses
an energy balance. The proxy methods can use square proxies for for the
occupancy based on OLF/ELF ratios, the weather-day-type method was
something that I heard about from Don Hadley at PNNL, later adopted by
Bou Saada on the Forrestal building and daycare center. The daily
readings are just that, read the main meter by eye, daily, especially
during weather independent times. The energy balance method is
documented in papers by Claridge et al. at the ESL.
There is also some encouraging work being done by Abushakra and Reddy on
ASHRAE RP 1404, now in progress and scheduled for completion later this
year. This is based on previous work by Abushakra for his Ph.D. thesis.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
PS: here are some helpful papers:
Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. "A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation
of a New Commercial Building: Part I - Calibrated As-built Simulation",
ASHRAE Transactions-Research, Vol. 114, Pt. 2, pp. 375-388 (June ).
Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. "A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation
of a New Commercial Building: Part II - Overall Methodology and
Comparison of Results", ASHRAE Transactions-Research, Vol. 114, Pt. 2,
pp. 389 - 403 (June).
Claridge, D., Abushakra, B., Haberl, J. 2003. "Electricity Diversity
Profiles for Energy Simulation of Office Buildings (1093-RP)," ASHRAE
Transactions-Research, Vol. 110, Pt. 1 (February), pp. 365-377.
Haberl, J., Bou-Saada, T. 1998. "Procedures for Calibrating Hourly
Simulation Models to Measured Building Energy and Environmental Data,"
ASME Journal of Solar Energy Engineering, Vol. 120, pp. 193 - 204
(August).
Haberl, J., Bronson, D., O'Neal, D. 1995. "An Evaluation of the Impact
of Using Measured Weather Data Versus TMY Weather Data in a DOE-2
Simulation of an Existing Building in Central Texas," ASHRAE
Transactions-Research, Vol. 101, Pt.. 2, pp. 558 - 576 (June).
Haberl, J., Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., O'Neal, D. 1993. "Graphical Tools
to help Calibrate the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-weather Dependent
Measured Loads," ASHRAE Journal, Vol. 35, No. 1, pp. 27 - 32 (January).
Haberl, J., MacDonald, M., Eden, A. 1988. "An Overview of 3-D Graphical
Analysis Using DOE-2 Hourly Simulation Data," ASHRAE
Transactions-Research, Vol. 94, Pt. 1, pp. 212 - 227 (January).
Kim, K., Haberl, J. 2010. "Development of a Calibration Methodology for
Code-Complaint Simulation With Results From Using a Case-Study House in
a Hot and Humid Climate", Proceedings of the 17th Symposium on
Improving Building Systems in Hot and Humid Climates, Texas A&M
University, Austin, Texas, accepted for publication (May).
Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., Haberl, J., O'Neal, D. 1992. "A Procedure for
Calibrating the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-Weather Dependent
Loads," ASHRAE Transactions-Research, Vol. 98, Pt. 1, pp. 636 - 652
(January).
8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=| 8=) :=')
8=)8=?
Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., FASHRAE..............jhaberl at tamu.edu
Professor............................................................Off
ice Ph: 979-845-6507
Department of Architecture.............................Lab
Ph:979-845-6065
Energy Systems Laboratory.............................FAX: 979-862-2457
Texas A&M University.....................................77843-3581
College Station, Texas, USA, 77843..................URL:www.esl.tamu.edu
<http://www.esl.tamu.edu/>
8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) :=) 8=) 8=! 8=) 8=? 8=)8=0
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] on behalf of Carol Gardner [
cmg750 at gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:59 PM
To: R B
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
Hi Rohini,
When you are bill matching there are not magical ways of doing things.
You pretty much have to put what's in the building in your model. Those
things you can control. The tricky part is to figure out how the
building is really being operated and to get the most accurate weather
data you can for your site.
Cheers,
Carol
On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:34 AM, R B <slv3sat at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All,
While modelling existing building (with calibration to utility bill), do
you model every VAV zone or lump similar ones together? What could be
possible disadvantages of lumping down the road? Any ECM's that will be
affected by this simplification?
Is there a magical way to figure the W/sqft for lighting and plug loads
without having to count everything on site?
Thanks for any insights.
-Rohini
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