[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

Carol Gardner cmg750 at gmail.com
Thu May 12 14:59:12 PDT 2011


Marcus,

You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a
BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP).

Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of
years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv
with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience
that was worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to
realize that they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to
be pursuing training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were
uncertain as to how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped
that by creating a path to certification that we would give clients one more
qualification to look for in their modelers.

If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I
mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of
chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a
LEED Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get
is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will
probably not give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll
start expressing doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?

So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and
technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find
any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and
easily searchable.

So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me
and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So
I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.

It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our
clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they
are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120
hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that
GIGO.

Cheers,

Carol


Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <
sheffer at energyopportunities.com> wrote:

>  In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80 hours.
>
>
>
> WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:
>
>
>
> Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to why we
> model – it is to guide design decisions!
>
>
>
> If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine LEED
> points, during or after design, I would try to educate the potential client
> about the purpose of modeling.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum
> when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all the benefits.
> Too often the “market” transforms only based on a least first cost
> denominator basis that results in little real transformation.  Doing models
> to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any energy, and
> just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version actually
> requires design phase modeling!)
>
>
>
> Any “modeler” who does only final models without attempting to explain to
> the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed out of the corp” in my
> humble opinion.
>
>
>
> The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more
> hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go up against
> the “modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far less time.  So how do we
> get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work so that
> they can compare fees on a level playing field?  It is unfortunate that we
> are even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to its
> purpose.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. J
>
>
>
> Marcus Sheffer
>
> Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company
>
> 1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365
>
> 717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com
>
> www.sevengroup.com
>
>
>
> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Demba Ndiaye
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM
> *To:* Omar Delgado; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> Omar,
>
>
>
> I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply
> by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and
> any review you may have to respond to later.
>
>
>
> Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you more
> time, possibly up to 40 more hours.
>
>
>
> HTH,
>
>
>
> _______________
>
> Demba NDIAYE
>
>
>
> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Omar Delgado
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> Greetings everyone,
>
>
>
> I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project.
> Every energy model I've done so far has been for
>
> existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received
> an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building
>
> that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver
> certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair
>
> price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE
> 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base
>
> and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take.
> I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.
>
>
>
> Can you shed any light on this issue?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
> *Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C*
>
> *Vice President*
>
> *Ener**Mech*
>
> PMB 340
>
> 130 Winston Churchill Ave.
>
> San Juan, PR 00926-6018
>
> Cel. (787) 224-6537
>
> odelgado at enermechpr.com
>
> info at enermechpr.com
>
> www.enermechpr.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Carol Gardner PE
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