[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
John Aulbach
jra_sac at yahoo.com
Thu May 12 16:45:32 PDT 2011
OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out there..older than dirt, eh?
I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling where you compare 20 walls and 40
windows types (well, it seemed that way). Correct me if I am wrong, but a Base
model must be built to comply with a certain level of ASHRAE 90.1 (now up to
2010 ??). With all of the nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going to build the
model from scrathc and put in all the relevant baseline data in by hand. And,
by the way, the ASHRAE baseline model might be an entirely different system. I
am just completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE 90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC
was screwe chillers, whereas the Actual building was packaged units with
Turbocor compressors (ask me how I did that).
It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A 40,000 sf office or a
500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.
I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out after the modeling has
been done. But I would not do anything of this type in under 120 hours,
preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can do better, let him.
Contingency, contingency.
We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..
John A.
________________________________
From: Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com>
To: sheffer at energyopportunities.com
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
Marcus,
You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP
certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP).
Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of
years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with
questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was
worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that they
were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing training
to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to how or if
they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a path to
certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look for in
their modelers.
If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I mean
the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of chances
if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED Gold
building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED Silver
and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not give you
any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing doubts about
the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?
So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and
technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find any
topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily
searchable.
So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and
I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going
to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.
It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients
about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting
the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to
be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that GIGO.
Cheers,
Carol
Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at energyopportunities.com>
wrote:
In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80 hours.
>
>WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:
>
>Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to why we model
>– it is to guide design decisions!
>
>
>If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine LEED points,
>during or after design, I would try to educate the potential client about the
>purpose of modeling.
>
>Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum when it
>comes to modeling and almost completely missing all the benefits. Too often the
>“market” transforms only based on a least first cost denominator basis that
>results in little real transformation. Doing models to determine LEED points
>does not transform the market, save any energy, and just circumvents the purpose
>behind LEED. (the next version actually requires design phase modeling!)
>
>Any “modeler” who does only final models without attempting to explain to the
>owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed out of the corp” in my humble
>opinion.
>
>The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more hours to
>really do the design phase modeling right, you will go up against the “modeler”
>who claims to be able to do it in far less time. So how do we get the folks who
>issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work so that they can compare fees
>on a level playing field? It is unfortunate that we are even having a
>discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to its purpose.
>
>Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. J
>
>Marcus Sheffer
>Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company
>1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA 17365
>717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com
>www.sevengroup.com
>
>From:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
>Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM
>To: Omar Delgado; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>Omar,
>
>I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply by
>your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and any
>review you may have to respond to later.
>
>Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you more time,
>possibly up to 40 more hours.
>
>HTH,
>
>_______________
>Demba NDIAYE
>
>From:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Omar Delgado
>Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM
>To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>Greetings everyone,
>
>I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project.
>Every energy model I've done so far has been for
>
>existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received an RFP
>to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building
>that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver
>certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair
>
>price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to
>evaluate the difference between the base
>
>and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take. I
>know the procedure, just haven't done it before.
>
>Can you shed any light on this issue?
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C
>Vice President
>EnerMech
>PMB 340
>130 Winston Churchill Ave.
>San Juan, PR 00926-6018
>Cel. (787) 224-6537
>odelgado at enermechpr.com
>info at enermechpr.com
>www.enermechpr.com
>
>
>
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--
Carol Gardner PE
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