[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

Steve Beck Steve.Beck at lechase.com
Fri May 13 05:17:34 PDT 2011


SOOOO ON TARGET!!!! Unfortunatley in NY, NYSERDA exacerbates the issue because they get owners to use their TA's for modeling and just cover the cost of the final (and the owner's aren't knowledgable enough to understand what they are getting) completely defeating the real benefit of the model; an iterative process to guide the design. 

________________________________

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Carol Gardner
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 5:59 PM
To: sheffer at energyopportunities.com
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost


Marcus,

You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP). 

Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a path to certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look for in their modelers.

If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?

So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily searchable. 

So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.

It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that GIGO.

Cheers,

Carol


Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at energyopportunities.com> wrote:


	In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80 hours.

	 

	WARNING - frustrated modeling rant to follow:

	 

	Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to why we model - it is to guide design decisions!  

	 

	If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the potential client about the purpose of modeling.

	 

	Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all the benefits.  Too often the "market" transforms only based on a least first cost denominator basis that results in little real transformation.  Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any energy, and just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version actually requires design phase modeling!)

	 

	Any "modeler" who does only final models without attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be "drummed out of the corp" in my humble opinion.

	 

	The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go up against the "modeler" who claims to be able to do it in far less time.  So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work so that they can compare fees on a level playing field?  It is unfortunate that we are even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to its purpose.

	 

	Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. J 

	 

	Marcus Sheffer

	Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company

	1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365

	717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com> 

	www.sevengroup.com

	 

	From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
	Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM
	To: Omar Delgado; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
	Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

	 

	Omar,

	 

	I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and any review you may have to respond to later.

	 

	Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.

	 

	HTH,

	 

	_______________

	Demba NDIAYE

	 

	From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Omar Delgado
	Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM
	To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
	Subject: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

	 

	Greetings everyone,

	 

	I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for 

	existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building

	that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair 

	price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base 

	and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.

	 

	Can you shed any light on this issue?

	 

	Thanks in advance!

	 

	Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C

	Vice President

	EnerMech

	PMB 340

	130 Winston Churchill Ave.

	San Juan, PR 00926-6018

	Cel. (787) 224-6537 <tel:%28787%29%20224-6537> 

	odelgado at enermechpr.com

	info at enermechpr.com

	www.enermechpr.com <http://www.enermechpr.com/> 

	 

	 

	 

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