[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

Arpan Bakshi arpanbakshi at gmail.com
Fri May 13 06:36:26 PDT 2011


Carol, to add to the comment about modeling certifications, lets not  
forget you can only manage that which can be measured!

There are two parts to this which we are missing before we can rest  
easy about our models accurately reflecting the mechanical design!

The first is the creation of a modeling handbook in addition to the  
ASHRAE handbooks providing documented modeling methodologies. Until we  
have this in place, even two experienced and 'certified' modelers will  
yield different simulation results when different modeling methods are  
used for the same systems.

The second item is the accuracy of the modeling tool. How can a model  
be accurately reflecting a mechanical design when any of the systems  
designed does not having corresponding mathematical software models  
and the model is a quilt of 'thermodynamical equivalents'? Unless your  
work consists of standard air distribution systems, or you are using  
EnergyPlus or TRNSYS, the majority of models created for LEED  
certification in DOE2 are still comparitive approximations at best,  
and just wrong at worst! I personally feel if we all had to purchase  
annual subscriptions to eQUEST, maybe our friends in California would  
be able to dedicate more resources to aid their development efforts_



Arpan Bakshi, LEED AP BD+C
YRG sustainability

On May 12, 2011, at 5:59 PM, Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Marcus,
>
> You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to  
> create a BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling  
> Professional (BEMP).
>
> Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a  
> couple of years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing  
> on the listserv with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of  
> training and experience that was worrisome. What made it worrisome  
> was that they didn't seem to realize that they were as inexperienced  
> as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing training to learn  
> how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to how or  
> if they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a  
> path to certification that we would give clients one more  
> qualification to look for in their modelers.
>
> If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by  
> industry I mean the overall construction industry, you know that you  
> don't get a lot of chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your  
> energy model says I have a LEED Gold building and I'm going to save  
> $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I  
> am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not give you any more  
> work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing doubts  
> about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?
>
> So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE  
> Handbooks and technical manuals so we know how to model the  
> difficult stuff. We can find any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of  
> which are one line, available, and easily searchable.
>
> So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really?  
> Not me and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John  
> Aulbach. So I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to  
> something.
>
> It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate  
> our clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they  
> think they are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used  
> to get in 120 hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that  
> and to be reminded that GIGO.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carol
>
>
> Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at energyopportunities.com 
> > wrote:
> In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80  
> hours.
>
>
>
> WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:
>
>
>
> Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to  
> why we model – it is to guide design decisions!
>
>
>
> If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine  
> LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the  
> potential client about the purpose of modeling.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the  
> minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all  
> the benefits.  Too often the “market” transforms only based on a  
> least first cost denominator basis that results in little real trans 
> formation.  Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform 
>  the market, save any energy, and just circumvents the purpose behin 
> d LEED. (the next version actually requires design phase modeling!)
>
>
>
> Any “modeler” who does only final models without attempting to  
> explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed out o 
> f the corp” in my humble opinion.
>
>
>
> The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or  
> more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go  
> up against the “modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far  
> less time.  So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for 
>  a proper scope of work so that they can compare fees on a level pla 
> ying field?  It is unfortunate that we are even having a discussion  
> about doing modeling work in opposition to its purpose.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. J
>
>
>
> Marcus Sheffer
>
> Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company
>
> 1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365
>
> 717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com
>
> www.sevengroup.com
>
>
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim- 
> bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM
> To: Omar Delgado; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> Omar,
>
>
>
> I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours  
> (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED  
> documentation, and any review you may have to respond to later.
>
>
>
> Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you  
> more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.
>
>
>
> HTH,
>
>
>
> _______________
>
> Demba NDIAYE
>
>
>
> From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim- 
> bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Omar Delgado
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost
>
>
>
> Greetings everyone,
>
>
>
> I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED  
> project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for
>
> existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I  
> received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building
>
> that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC  
> Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair
>
> price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G  
> (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base
>
> and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will  
> take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.
>
>
>
> Can you shed any light on this issue?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
> Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C
>
> Vice President
>
> EnerMech
>
> PMB 340
>
> 130 Winston Churchill Ave.
>
> San Juan, PR 00926-6018
>
> Cel. (787) 224-6537
>
> odelgado at enermechpr.com
>
> info at enermechpr.com
>
> www.enermechpr.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> -- 
> Carol Gardner PE
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