[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

Will Mak wmak at epsteinglobal.com
Fri May 13 08:28:43 PDT 2011


Sure those may be good rules of thumb but at the end of the day you have to look at the manpower, resources, and experience you and your firm have to apply the correct factor on putting that proposal together. 

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

William Mak, LEED Green Associate
Mechanical Design Engineer

EPSTEIN
Architecture
Interiors
Engineering
Construction

600 West Fulton Street
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D: (312) 429-8116
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From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Arpan Bakshi
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:19 AM
To: Julia Beabout
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

 

In efforts to summarize the pricing conversation, that the pricing should be established by modeling complexity instead of by building size, is the following a fair assessment of what everyone's comments amount to?

 

LEED Certified: 60-80 hours

LEED Silver: 80-160 hours

LEED Gold: 160-250 hours

LEED Platinum: 250-350 hours

 

 

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Julia Beabout <juliabeabout at yahoo.com> wrote:

Omar,
This is cracking me up.  I don't think I've ever seen this much traffic on one issue!  LOL.
Regarding the manhours for a LEED model - my opinion is that the amount of time has much more to do with the level of certification the project is going for, at what point the modeling services are engaged in the design, and the type and complexity of the building (systems).  That's not to say the number of manhours is completely independent of building size (square footage), but its not particularly sensitive to it.  I find that that there is a high "low" and low "high" for modeling.  In other words, it's hard to complete an energy model in less than 60-80 hours (all said and done - paperwork, LEED responses etc), but it rarely take more than 250 hours.  (Although, some rare complex projects going for platinmum could take up to 350 hours).  Like others, I find the norm for a reasonably complex bldg going for LEED silver or gold typically requires between 120 and 160 hours. 

Marcus  
Here's my two cents on below. I will look for the public comment period as well.  Thanks for the heads up.
I think the idea of incentivizing modeling early in the design is a great idea, but I think requiring it is completely inappropriate.  Perhaps it could be encouraged by awarding an extra (innovation? or EA cr 1?) point for starting modeling in schematic design.  Or, perhaps the credit could be restructured similar to the CX credits where in order to get the enhanced CX credits, you have to have the CX agent involved early in the design.  In some ways, the current set up already does this though with the progress points for increased levels of saving.  Quite frankly, if you are going for 50% savings, you're not gonig to get there unless you start modeling really early in the process.
  
I also think prescribing a certain minimum number of ECMs to look at is inappropriate and would probably have the adverse effect of discouraging energy modeling.  The appropriate number of ECMs is highly project dependent - based on building size, scope, complexity, type, level of LEED certification shooting for, and not least of all the owner's budget.  Let's face it, the vast majority of bldgs out there and that consume most of the energy in the US are (strip) malls, grocery stores, restaurants etc.  These projects barely event have a schematic, design and CD phase.  While we all love to work on the exotic, platinum level, cutting edge, bldgs that are likely to have a large budget for design, these are not the majority of bldgs consuming energy.  I think we should be doing more to encourage modeling and energy savings amongst the every day projects than the "sexy" projects.  It seems to me the best way to do this is to offer incentives in this direction in lieu of prescriptive requirements that could discourage/put off smaller projects from even attempting to incorporate modeling.  

Julia

 

________________________________

From: Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at energyopportunities.com>


To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org

Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 8:16:56 AM


Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

 

If anyone has any good ideas about how to structure the LEED credits to end the practice of validation models at the end and encourage/require design phase modeling the folks on the USGBC EA TAG would love to hear them.  The current proposed credit language from the first public comment phase is listed below.

 

NC, CS, SCHOOLS, RETAIL, WAREHOUSE & DISTRIBUTION CENTERS, HOSPITALITY

Establish an energy performance target no later than the schematic design phase. The target must be established as kBTU per square foot-year of source energy use. This target must be mapped on the same scale as the baseline and proposed buildings, if the project follows Option 1.

 

OPTION 1. Whole Building Energy Simulation 

Analyze a minimum of at least nine efficiency measures during the design process and account for the results in design decision-making. Analysis can include energy simulation of efficiency opportunities, application of past energy simulation analyses for similar projects to the project, or application of published data from energy analyses performed for similar projects to the project (such as AEDGs).

 

A minimum of six energy efficiency measures focused on load reduction strategies appropriate for the facility must be analyzed. This analysis must be performed during the schematic design phase.

 

A minimum of three energy efficiency measures focused on HVAC related strategies must be analyzed (passive measures are acceptable). This analysis must be performed before the conclusion of the design development phase.

 

The results of the analysis must be summarized in a brief report or memorandum.

 

 

The next version of LEED will be going out for public comment again in July, I think, so please comment formally as well as discussing here.

 

Marcus Sheffer

Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company

1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365

717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com> 

www.sevengroup.com

 

From: John Aulbach [mailto:jra_sac at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:46 PM
To: Carol Gardner; Marcus Sheffer
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

 

OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out there..older than dirt, eh?

 

I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling where you compare 20 walls and 40 windows types (well, it seemed that way). Correct me if I am wrong, but a Base model must be built to comply with a certain level of ASHRAE 90.1 (now up to 2010 ??). With all of the nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going to build the model from scrathc and put in all the relevant baseline data in by hand.  And, by the way, the ASHRAE baseline model might be an entirely different system.  I am just completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE 90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC was screwe chillers, whereas the Actual building was packaged units with Turbocor compressors (ask me how I did that).

 

It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A 40,000 sf office or a 500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.

 

I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out after the modeling has been done. But I would not do anything of this type in under 120 hours, preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can do better, let him.

 

Contingency, contingency.

 

We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..

 

John A.

 

________________________________

From: Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com>
To: sheffer at energyopportunities.com
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

Marcus,

You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP). 

Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience that was worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to realize that they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to be pursuing training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were uncertain as to how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped that by creating a path to certification that we would give clients one more qualification to look for in their modelers.

If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a LEED Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will probably not give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll start expressing doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?

So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and easily searchable. 

So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.

It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120 hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that GIGO.

Cheers,

Carol


Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at energyopportunities.com> wrote:

	In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80 hours.

	 

	WARNING - frustrated modeling rant to follow:

	 

	Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to why we model - it is to guide design decisions!  

	 

	If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine LEED points, during or after design, I would try to educate the potential client about the purpose of modeling.

	 

	Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all the benefits.  Too often the "market" transforms only based on a least first cost denominator basis that results in little real transformation.  Doing models to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any energy, and just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version actually requires design phase modeling!)

	 

	Any "modeler" who does only final models without attempting to explain to the owner why this is a bad idea should be "drummed out of the corp" in my humble opinion.

	 

	The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more hours to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go up against the "modeler" who claims to be able to do it in far less time.  So how do we get the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work so that they can compare fees on a level playing field?  It is unfortunate that we are even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to its purpose.

	 

	Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. J 

	 

	Marcus Sheffer

	Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company

	1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365

	717-292-2636, sheffer at sevengroup.com <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com> 

	www.sevengroup.com <http://www.sevengroup.com/> 

	 

	From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
	Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM
	To: Omar Delgado; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
	Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

	 

	Omar,

	 

	I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and any review you may have to respond to later.

	 

	Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you more time, possibly up to 40 more hours.

	 

	HTH,

	 

	_______________

	Demba NDIAYE

	 

	From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Omar Delgado
	Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM
	To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
	Subject: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

	 

	Greetings everyone,

	 

	I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project. Every energy model I've done so far has been for 

	existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received an RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building

	that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair 

	price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1) to evaluate the difference between the base 

	and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take. I know the procedure, just haven't done it before.

	 

	Can you shed any light on this issue?

	 

	Thanks in advance!

	 

	Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C

	Vice President

	EnerMech

	PMB 340

	130 Winston Churchill Ave.

	San Juan, PR 00926-6018

	Cel. (787) 224-6537 <tel:%28787%29%20224-6537> 

	odelgado at enermechpr.com

	info at enermechpr.com

	www.enermechpr.com <http://www.enermechpr.com/> 

	 

	 

	 

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Arpan Bakshi, LEED AP BD+C

 

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