[Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

[Marcus Sheffer]

The EAp2c1 credit for thermal storage would be minimal I think but it does
exist as currently written.  Since the proposed metric is a combination of
cost and EUI, thermal storage should do better in one and probably worse in
the other.

 

Not sure how we could separate out the systems in the models for EAp2c1, but
you make a good point about potential double counting (not always a bad
thing for LEED if it is something we really want to encourage like
renewables).

 

Marcus Sheffer

Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company

1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365

717-292-2636,  <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com> sheffer at sevengroup.com

www.sevengroup.com

 

From: Arpan Bakshi [mailto:arpanbakshi at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 7:16 PM
To: Marcus Sheffer
Cc: Julia Beabout; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

 

While we have Marcus's attention, I would like to rant !

 

Since the next version of LEED will have a credit dedicated to peak demand
reduction, can we make it so that credit cannot be taken for EAp2c1 for
thermal energy storage systems?

 

The peak demand credit already addresses reduction of power generation at
the power plant scale, so optimize energy performance can be more true to
reduction of site energy.

 

Too many towers apply no energy conservation measures to internal gains and
simply transfer their cooling requirements to their CALMAC tanks.

 

 

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Marcus Sheffer
<sheffer at energyopportunities.com> wrote:

Julia,

 

I appreciate your thoughts and input.

 

In my opinion early stage modeling (or a reasonable facsimile) should be
required for every green building project.  Doing a model at the end for
those average projects serves no real purpose and is frankly a waste of
everyone’s time (see previous rant).  If we continue to allow this for LEED
the market will never change.  Keep in mind we are talking about LEED and
its stated purpose is market transformation.  The typical project should not
be able to get LEED certified if it works properly in the market.  Right now
the market has caught up to LEED in many ways.  If it does not stay ahead of
the market then it ceases to have any meaning whatsoever.  So, if not now,
when?

 

I don’t disagree that  the current requirements are rather prescriptive and
that the number of iterations should vary project-to-project.  I am
struggling to come up with an alternative that still requires design phase
modeling.

 

One can still earn the prerequisite without early stage modeling, but cannot
earn any points for EAc1 as it is now proposed.  I don’t think an ID credit
would give enough incentive, too easy to ignore.  There are prescriptive
paths specifically to address small projects.

 

Marcus Sheffer

Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company

1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365

717-292-2636,  <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com> sheffer at sevengroup.com

 <http://www.sevengroup.com> www.sevengroup.com

 

From: Julia Beabout [mailto:juliabeabout at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:22 AM
To: Marcus Sheffer; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org


Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

 

Omar,
This is cracking me up.  I don't think I've ever seen this much traffic on
one issue!  LOL.
Regarding the manhours for a LEED model - my opinion is that the amount of
time has much more to do with the level of certification the project is
going for, at what point the modeling services are engaged in the design,
and the type and complexity of the building (systems).  That's not to say
the number of manhours is completely independent of building size (square
footage), but its not particularly sensitive to it.  I find that that there
is a high "low" and low "high" for modeling.  In other words, it's hard to
complete an energy model in less than 60-80 hours (all said and done -
paperwork, LEED responses etc), but it rarely take more than 250 hours.
(Although, some rare complex projects going for platinmum could take up to
350 hours).  Like others, I find the norm for a reasonably complex bldg
going for LEED silver or gold typically requires between 120 and 160 hours. 

Marcus  
Here's my two cents on below. I will look for the public comment period as
well.  Thanks for the heads up.
I think the idea of incentivizing modeling early in the design is a great
idea, but I think requiring it is completely inappropriate.  Perhaps it
could be encouraged by awarding an extra (innovation? or EA cr 1?) point for
starting modeling in schematic design.  Or, perhaps the credit could be
restructured similar to the CX credits where in order to get the enhanced CX
credits, you have to have the CX agent involved early in the design.  In
some ways, the current set up already does this though with the progress
points for increased levels of saving.  Quite frankly, if you are going for
50% savings, you're not gonig to get there unless you start modeling really
early in the process.
  
I also think prescribing a certain minimum number of ECMs to look at is
inappropriate and would probably have the adverse effect of discouraging
energy modeling.  The appropriate number of ECMs is highly project dependent
- based on building size, scope, complexity, type, level of LEED
certification shooting for, and not least of all the owner's budget.  Let's
face it, the vast majority of bldgs out there and that consume most of the
energy in the US are (strip) malls, grocery stores, restaurants etc.  These
projects barely event have a schematic, design and CD phase.  While we all
love to work on the exotic, platinum level, cutting edge, bldgs that are
likely to have a large budget for design, these are not the majority of
bldgs consuming energy.  I think we should be doing more to encourage
modeling and energy savings amongst the every day projects than the "sexy"
projects.  It seems to me the best way to do this is to offer incentives in
this direction in lieu of prescriptive requirements that could
discourage/put off smaller projects from even attempting to incorporate
modeling.  

Julia

 

  _____  

From: Marcus Sheffer <sheffer at energyopportunities.com>
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 8:16:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

If anyone has any good ideas about how to structure the LEED credits to end
the practice of validation models at the end and encourage/require design
phase modeling the folks on the USGBC EA TAG would love to hear them.  The
current proposed credit language from the first public comment phase is
listed below.

 

NC, CS, SCHOOLS, RETAIL, WAREHOUSE & DISTRIBUTION CENTERS, HOSPITALITY

Establish an energy performance target no later than the schematic design
phase. The target must be established as kBTU per square foot-year of source
energy use. This target must be mapped on the same scale as the baseline and
proposed buildings, if the project follows Option 1.

 

OPTION 1. Whole Building Energy Simulation 

Analyze a minimum of at least nine efficiency measures during the design
process and account for the results in design decision-making. Analysis can
include energy simulation of efficiency opportunities, application of past
energy simulation analyses for similar projects to the project, or
application of published data from energy analyses performed for similar
projects to the project (such as AEDGs).

 

A minimum of six energy efficiency measures focused on load reduction
strategies appropriate for the facility must be analyzed. This analysis must
be performed during the schematic design phase.

 

A minimum of three energy efficiency measures focused on HVAC related
strategies must be analyzed (passive measures are acceptable). This analysis
must be performed before the conclusion of the design development phase.

 

The results of the analysis must be summarized in a brief report or
memorandum.

 

 

The next version of LEED will be going out for public comment again in July,
I think, so please comment formally as well as discussing here.

 

Marcus Sheffer

Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company

1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365

717-292-2636,  <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com> sheffer at sevengroup.com

www.sevengroup.com

 

From: John Aulbach [mailto:jra_sac at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:46 PM
To: Carol Gardner; Marcus Sheffer
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

 

OK, Carol..now you threw the "bait" out there..older than dirt, eh?

 

I have done very limited LEED "type" modeling where you compare 20 walls and
40 windows types (well, it seemed that way). Correct me if I am wrong, but a
Base model must be built to comply with a certain level of ASHRAE 90.1 (now
up to 2010 ??). With all of the nuisances of eQuest 3.64, I am going to
build the model from scrathc and put in all the relevant baseline data in by
hand.  And, by the way, the ASHRAE baseline model might be an entirely
different system.  I am just completing an EPACT evaluation (ASHRAE
90.1-2001) and the Baseline HVAC was screwe chillers, whereas the Actual
building was packaged units with Turbocor compressors (ask me how I did
that).

 

It very much depends on the complexity of the building. A 40,000 sf office
or a 500,000 sf hotel with casino facilites.

 

I am unfamiliar with the LEED paperwork to be filled out after the modeling
has been done. But I would not do anything of this type in under 120 hours,
preferably 160 hours. If the client thinks he can do better, let him.

 

Contingency, contingency.

 

We won't discuss how old CAROL might be..

 

John A.

 

  _____  

From: Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com>
To: sheffer at energyopportunities.com
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Thu, May 12, 2011 2:59:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

Marcus,

You have inadvertently hit upon why IBPSA worked with ASHRAE to create a
BEMP certification. That's Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP). 

Some of us who have been in the field for awhile began to worry a couple of
years ago when so many new energy modelers began appearing on the listserv
with questions. Their questions indicated a lack of training and experience
that was worrisome. What made it worrisome was that they didn't seem to
realize that they were as inexperienced as they were; they didn't appear to
be pursuing training to learn how to do what they were doing; and we were
uncertain as to how or if they were practicing quality control. We hoped
that by creating a path to certification that we would give clients one more
qualification to look for in their modelers.

If you have been in this industry for any length of time, and by industry I
mean the overall construction industry, you know that you don't get a lot of
chances if your work doesn't pan out. If your energy model says I have a
LEED Gold building and I'm going to save $4,000/year and what I really get
is LEED Silver and $1,000/year, I am not going to be happy. So, I will
probably not give you any more work but, even worse for all of us, I'll
start expressing doubts about the whole process. LEED - what is it good for?

So, now we all have more training, right? We read our ASHRAE Handbooks and
technical manuals so we know how to model the difficult stuff. We can find
any topic in the DOE2 Manuals, all of which are one line, available, and
easily searchable. 

So now we are so good we can do these models in 40-80 hours. Really? Not me
and I've been doing it longer than everyone, except you, John Aulbach. So
I'm going to join Marcus in his rant because he's on to something.

It's up to us to not under bid this work. It's up to us to educate our
clients about the importance of quality in this process. If they think they
are getting the same analysis in 40 hours that they used to get in 120
hours, they need to be led around to rethinking that and to be reminded that
GIGO.

Cheers,

Carol


Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Marcus Sheffer
<sheffer at energyopportunities.com> wrote:

In our experience a final model, done right, would take about 80 hours.

 

WARNING – frustrated modeling rant to follow:

 

Doing just a final model however completely misses the point as to why we
model – it is to guide design decisions!  

 

If I saw this RFP and all it asked me for was a model to determine LEED
points, during or after design, I would try to educate the potential client
about the purpose of modeling.

 

Unfortunately too many projects pursuing LEED are only doing the minimum
when it comes to modeling and almost completely missing all the benefits.
Too often the “market” transforms only based on a least first cost
denominator basis that results in little real transformation.  Doing models
to determine LEED points does not transform the market, save any energy, and
just circumvents the purpose behind LEED. (the next version actually
requires design phase modeling!)

 

Any “modeler” who does only final models without attempting to explain to
the owner why this is a bad idea should be “drummed out of the corp” in my
humble opinion.

 

The problem is that if you respond to this RFP with 120 or 160 or more hours
to really do the design phase modeling right, you will go up against the
“modeler” who claims to be able to do it in far less time.  So how do we get
the folks who issue the RFPs to ask for a proper scope of work so that they
can compare fees on a level playing field?  It is unfortunate that we are
even having a discussion about doing modeling work in opposition to its
purpose.

 

Sorry for the rant but I feel better now. J 

 

Marcus Sheffer

Energy Opportunities, Inc/a 7group Company

1200 E Camping Area Road, Wellsville, PA  17365

717-292-2636,  <mailto:sheffer at sevengroup.com> sheffer at sevengroup.com

www.sevengroup.com <http://www.sevengroup.com/> 

 

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:28 PM
To: Omar Delgado; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

 

Omar,

 

I would expect, for a building this size, approximately 40 hours (multiply
by your hourly rate). The 40 hours include EAp2/EAc1 LEED documentation, and
any review you may have to respond to later.

 

Now, given that you have never done a LEED model, it will take you more
time, possibly up to 40 more hours.

 

HTH,

 

_______________

Demba NDIAYE

 

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Omar Delgado
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:08 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Energy Model Cost

 

Greetings everyone,

 

I have a question regarding the cost of an energy model for a LEED project.
Every energy model I've done so far has been for 

existing buildings, mainly for optimization purposes. However, I received an
RFP to model a five-story, 41,500 sq. ft. building

that's currently on the design phase and is pursuing the LEED-NC Silver
certification. I really have no idea what would be a fair 

price for this model since I'm going to have to use Appendix G (ASHRAE 90.1)
to evaluate the difference between the base 

and proposed buildings. I don't know how much extra effort this will take. I
know the procedure, just haven't done it before.

 

Can you shed any light on this issue?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Omar A. Delgado Colón, P.E., MEnvM., LEED AP BD&C

Vice President

EnerMech

PMB 340

130 Winston Churchill Ave.

San Juan, PR 00926-6018

Cel. (787) 224-6537

odelgado at enermechpr.com

info at enermechpr.com

 <http://www.enermechpr.com/> www.enermechpr.com

 

 

 

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Arpan Bakshi, LEED AP BD+C

 

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