[Bldg-sim] Building envelope

[Jeff Haberl]

FYI. 

RP1468, which involves developing guidelines for BIM to thermal models, is currently in progress and scheduled for completion in June 2012. It has one test case that attempted to compare DOE2.1e to DOE2.2 and EP+ for the SAMP1E, run 3A file. The results show 2.1e and 2.2 only agree at the envelope level to within 20% (I.e. System sum) or so, and 2.1e to EP+ has even larger disagreement. The final report will have over 1 GByte of files for review, including Autodesk, Bentley and Archicad BIM files for about 20+ test cases. 

So, there is still work to do, especially when one considers that development work for 90.1, 90.2, and 189 are now only being simulated with EP+, which means users who uses a DOE2 derivative for 90.1 compliance will have trouble duplicating the tabulated results in the standard within 20%.

Std 189 will eventually have even more trouble as it also covers peak reductions, yet has scant advice has been provided about how to calculate peak loads using a simulation and TMY2 or TMY3 weather files...which will oversize if one is not careful. 

Jeff 
BB 8=!  8=)  :=)  8=)  ;=)  8=)  8=(  8=)  :=')  8=)  8=)  8=? BB

Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D., P.E., FASHRAE...................jhaberl at tamu.edu

Professor......................................................Office Ph: 979-845-6507

Department of Architecture.......................Lab Ph: 979-845-6065 

Energy Systems Laboratory.......................FAX: 979-862-2457 

Texas A&M University..............................77843-3581

College Station, Texas, USA.......................URL: www-esl.tamu.edu

BB 8=/  8=)  :=)  8=)  ;=)  8=)  8=()  8=) 8=?  8=)  8=)  8= BB
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Macdonald, Iain [mailto:Iain.Macdonald at nrc-cnrc.gc.ca]
Sent: Wed Jan 25 10:51:21 2012
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Building envelope

In addition to the IEA and ASHRAE validation work already described there are also a bunch of CEN standards for energy simulation tools.

 

One interesting development from a few years ago that may be of interest was that the actual models used for the validation tests for the ESP-r tool were embedded into the software (i.e. they are distributed with it and can be invoked by users from the interface). This gives the user two opportunities: they can check that they get the same answer on their OS/hardware and they can see how the ‘experts’ modelled the test cases. 

 

Iain

 

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Dru Crawley
Sent: January-23-12 7:37 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Building envelope

 

Std 140 comes with example results from various software programs.  However many tools also publish reports comparing their 140 results on their web sites.  That information is required to be certified as software for use for the tax credits for commercial buildings:  http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/tax_commercial.html and http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/qualified_software.html



 

On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 7:12 PM, RobertWichert <robert at wichert.org> wrote:

Yes, good idea, Jeff.  "Ease of use" isn't in there, but then, I guess that's not always important.

Do you know of any papers that compare EQuest to EnergyPro to EnergyPlus to DOE-2 to TRACE-700 to anything else using ASHRAE 140?

Maybe the publishers of these models have done the ASHRAE 140 work and would allow us to see it, but "Ease of Use" is not on their list!






Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP
+1 916 966 9060 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209060> 
FAX +1 916 966 9068 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209068> 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
===============================================


On 1/23/2012 3:13 PM, Jeff Haberl wrote: 

FYI...

 

If you are thinking about how accurate an energy model may or may not be, there has been quite a bit of work done by the ASHRAE Standard 140 over the last 20 years, including: empirical, comparative and analytical models of the building envelope, air side systems. Standard 140 is a standard method of test for simulation that is used by others to see if the algorithms inside the program are performing correctly. The IEA and others have tests as well, which include side-by-side test boxes.

 

Jeff

 

8=!  8=)  :=)  8=)  ;=)  8=)  8=(  8=)  8=()  8=)  8=|  8=)  :=')  8=)8=?

Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., FASHRAE..............jhaberl at tamu.edu

Professor............................................................Office Ph: 979-845-6507

Department of Architecture.............................Lab Ph:979-845-6065

Energy Systems Laboratory.............................FAX: 979-862-2457

Texas A&M University.....................................77843-3581

College Station, Texas, USA, 77843..................URL:www.esl.tamu.edu

8=/  8=)  :=)  8=)  ;=)  8=)  8=()  8=)  :=)  8=)  8=!  8=)  8=? 8=)8=0

________________________________

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] on behalf of leen peeters [l.f.r.peeters at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 3:08 AM
To: Jeremiah Crossett
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; Jon Broadway
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Building envelope

Jeremiah,

 

it is already a pretty large building. I assume most people are like me ... really occupied. A small thing can be smached in between, but not something that might take me 6 to 8 hours to analyse and model. Should we not look for something smaller? A might be able to get some data on a passive house in Belgium. Something less than 200 m2, measured during over a year.

 

Leen

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 9:47 PM, Jeremiah Crossett <jeremiah at setnrgh2o.com> wrote:

I have two office buildings with data, including energy star portfolio manager data, and actual utility meeter data. Also I have architectural data on them.  For the one I have three years data on, the other only one year.   See the attached for the one with the best data and let me know if one of these works..

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM, RobertWichert <robert at wichert.org> wrote:

	Now THAT would be a better test than I envisioned, Jon.  I was just thinking of comparing models, NOT comparing them to a real building.  Sounds like fun though! 

	
	
	
	
	
	

	Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP
	+1 916 966 9060 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209060> 
	FAX +1 916 966 9068 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209068> 
	 
	 
	 
	 
	 
	 
	 
	===============================================

	 

	On 1/21/2012 9:15 AM, Jon Broadway wrote: 

	Mr Wichert:  And the next question would be , “Where do we find such an existing  bldg. with real demand and energy data set already available?.”     I would assume that many such exist, but I , for one, would not know how to begin to identify one.  Maybe the folks at NREL or LNBL have access to such data, and maybe one from there could kindly respond to your request?

	 

	Regards,

	Jon A . Broadway

	 

	From: RobertWichert [mailto:robert at wichert.org] 
	Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 12:55 PM
	To: Jon Broadway; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org

	
	Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Building envelope

	 

	Yes, of course.  I was thinking of a non-residential one-story wood frame, steel studs, or concrete block building with one or two windows per side and a cathedral ceiling on a poured slab.  A basement would be OK too, but not really necessary.  Either no zoning at all or a core for toilets/break rooms and open plan office all around.
	
	I mean REALLY simple.
	
	
	

	Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP
	+1 916 966 9060 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209060> 
	FAX +1 916 966 9068 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209068> 
	 
	 
	 
	 
	 
	 
	 
	===============================================

	
	On 1/20/2012 10:08 AM, Jon Broadway wrote: 

	Mr Wichert: Although I like your idea of head-to-head modeling, I think it would only be real useful if one could start with a “simple” bldg. for wahich there was existing good quality energy and demand data set.   That way, one could not only have “precision “ but also some baseline of “accuracy”.

	 

	I like you idea,  but to start small and simple would be key for me,  so as not to commit a large amount of time.

	 

	Thanks for your suggestion.

	 

	Jon Broadway

	 

	Jon  Broadway, Ph.D., P.E. 

	Member, US  Green Building Council

	Member, International Building Performance Standards Association (IBPSA)

	 

	Energy Savers Unlimited

	 

	600 South Court St

	Suite 305

	Montgomery AL  36104

	Cell  phone   334- 430-0262 <tel:334-%20430-0262> 

	 

	 

	 

	 

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-- 

Jeremiah D. Crossett

Setanta Energy & Water

Phone: 503-688-8951

Email: jeremiah at setnrgh2o.com <mailto:jeremiah at setnrgh2o.com> 

http://www.setnrgh2o.com/



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