[Bldg-sim] Masonry Heater and LEED

[Nick Caton]

Aaron / Karen:

I have not had the pleasure of modeling a wood stove or other wood-fueled heating for a LEED project - I'd defer to first read any wood-heating related CIR's and other material.

I can relate that I've successfully completed a reviewed LEED model that used multiple baseline systems however where we were clearly bridging the "electric" vs. "fossil fuel" divide.  In the case I'm thinking of we had electric heating generally but used gas radiant heaters for some large back of house areas.

In retrospect it was a significant amount of extra documentation / explanation when all was said and done, but local gas vs. electric rates ultimately required making that distinction in the baseline.

An outside the box thought:  Maybe interpreting the operation of your fancy fireplace as a free/cheap process internal heat load (applied only to the proposed model, with explanation) would be simpler from a baseline/documentation standpoint... Maybe =).

~Nick

[cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]

NICK CATON, P.E.
SENIOR ENGINEER

Smith & Boucher Engineers
25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
olathe, ks 66061
direct 913.344.0036
fax 913.345.0617
www.smithboucher.com

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Karen Walkerman
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 11:57 AM
To: Dahlstrom, Aaron
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Masonry Heater and LEED

Hi Aaron,

Thanks for your response.  Wood is harvested on-site by the occupants.  My project is very similar, and I think I will take the same approach.  You might want to look into the CIR's because there was one from LEED 2.0 that mentioned locally harvested wood for heat.  The ruling was in relation to the renewable energy credit and indicated that credit can be taken for renewable energy for any wood harvested from the site, or an adjacent site with the same owner as long as there is a sustainable forestry plan.  Could be worth an extra 7 points for you guys.

As far as how to model it - I'm using EnergyPlus these days so I have many options for modeling the system.

--
Karen
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Dahlstrom, Aaron <ADahlstrom at in-posse.com<mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com>> wrote:
Karen -

Good question! I have a project right now using a wood stove.

If it's biomass, it technically isn't "fossil fuel", right?

So, whether VRF ("electric") OR biomass ("other") is the predominant heat source, in both cases you'd be up against the right-hand column of Table G3.1.1A for your baseline ... make sense?

Additionally, are you actually modeling the "energy cost" of the masonry heater in the proposed case?
(If so, a whole host of questions follow. Energy rate? Acceptable per LEED to use biomass heaters in model? Mechanism for modeling in eQUEST?) If so, then I believe you would be attempting to show the energy cost difference between heating with wood (eg "Other" fuel source) and heating with an electric single-zone heat pump.

On my job, there is a woodstove and a water source heatpump.

However, the client has indicated that the use of the woodstove will be only occasional, so we are allowing the load to be carried by the water-to-water heat pump only in the proposed case, and the baseline is from the right-hand column of Table G3.1.1A.

Additionally, they have 40+acres, and plan to harvest the wood on-site, so technically there is no cash paid for the woodfuel source ... ie it would only be a savings in the model versus the displaced electric heat pump heat ... so we feel we are conservative in neglecting it. Might be a different story if the client was purchasing their wood. Anyone ever do a calc of $ / BTU from dry hardwood versus natural gas versus heat pump heating?? ;)


Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
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From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Karen Walkerman

Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:09 PM
To: Jim Dirkes
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Masonry Heater and LEED

a gorgeous way to heat with wood.

http://www.turtlerockheat.com/heaters.html
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Jim Dirkes <jim at buildingperformanceteam.com<mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com>> wrote:
What is a masonry heater?

The Building Performance Team
James V. Dirkes II, P.E., BEMP , LEED AP
1631 Acacia Drive NW
Grand Rapids, MI 49504
616 450 8653<tel:616%20450%208653>

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Karen Walkerman
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:21 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Masonry Heater and LEED

Hi,

I have a LEED project that is utilizing a VRV system to provide heating and cooling.  The building also has a masonry heater that the users will use often as a heat source and for cooking.  I'm completing a LEED model for this project and I'm not sure how to approach the baseline heating systems.  The building has a fully functional VRV system - this would lead to choosing System 4 - PSZ-HP.  However, the users will use the masonry heater for heat whenever they can.  This might lead to choosing System 3, and using a boiler.  Any thoughts or experience with similar projects?

Thanks,

--
Karen


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