[Bldg-sim] LEED Swimming Pool Sizing and ACH

Jim Dirkes jim at buildingperformanceteam.com
Wed Sep 19 04:30:39 PDT 2012


Dear Demba,
For the pool I recently modeled, I did not make the Baseline airflow anything different than what was auto-sized at 20F delta T.  However, you have caused me to think about this further and it seems that perhaps Exception c. for G3.1.1 may apply to you if the pool's airflow rate can be argued to be "code-required" at 4AC.  If I had thought of it, I think I would have done this.  As it is, we just received comments back from GBCI, and with 38% savings already, I don't think I will "rock the boat".

If the baseline HVAC system type is 5, 6, 7, or 8, use
separate single-zone systems conforming with the
requirements of System 3 or System 4 (depending on
building heat source) for any zones having special pressurization
relationships, cross-contamination requirements,
or code-required minimum circulation rates.

James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
www.buildingperformanceteam.com<http://www.buildingperformanceteam.com/>
Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
616 450 8653

From: Demba Ndiaye [mailto:Demba.Ndiaye at setty.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:31 PM
To: Jim Dirkes; Aaron Smith; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] LEED Swimming Pool Sizing and ACH

Thanks Guys,

I appreciate your comments.

I use System 3 as recommended by Appendix G for pool space conditioning. Evaporation load is included. Relative humidity is maintained to max 60%. But still, the sizing I get for the Baseline remains below 4 ACH. I would like to find backup material to make the case that the Baseline should use 4 ACH as the Proposed. Equitable? Or maybe not?

Any more ideas?

Regards,

Demba.

From: Jim Dirkes [mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com]<mailto:[mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 4:46 PM
To: Aaron Smith; Demba Ndiaye; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] LEED Swimming Pool Sizing and ACH

In a recent LEED project with a pool, my assumptions were:

*         The Aquatics space requires special temperature and humidity for 24/7 schedule, and thus merits use of a "non-predominant" special Baseline (System #3 or #4)

*         The Baseline system (#3 in this case) used the standard delta T, fan power, etc.

*         The Proposed system used hot gas reheat, a standard (80%) efficiency boiler for additional heating, heat recovery for the minimum outdoor airflow, and heat recovery from hot gas (if available after reheating) for pool water heating

*         Pool water heating, including pool wall conduction loads and pool pumps were considered "process" loads

*         Results were favorable!

James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
www.buildingperformanceteam.com<http://www.buildingperformanceteam.com/>
Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
616 450 8653

From: Aaron Smith [mailto:asmith at mreng.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 4:33 PM
To: Jim Dirkes; 'Demba Ndiaye'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] LEED Swimming Pool Sizing and ACH

Demba,

In previous versions of LEED, I think you could consider the pool a process load and model the natatorium as an empty space.  Now that you need to include process loads, perhaps you can have the reference and proposed equal unless you are trying to claim savings as Jim mentioned.

Aaron

Aaron Smith, P.Eng
LEED(r) AP BD+C, M-ASHRAE, Mechanical Engineer
[cid:image001.jpg at 01CD9638.A9EBCBB0]
t: (902) 422-7393
f: (902) 423-4945
e: asmith at mreng.ca<mailto:asmith at mreng.ca>

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________________________________
From: Jim Dirkes [mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com]<mailto:[mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:00 PM
To: Demba Ndiaye; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] LEED Swimming Pool Sizing and ACH

Dear Demba,
Airflow is only one of the comparisons for a pool.  The others, all very powerful in impact, are de-humidification, and heat recovery from the refrigeration system for reheating and pool water heating, and heat recovery for outdoor air preheating.

James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, LEED AP
www.buildingperformanceteam.com<http://www.buildingperformanceteam.com/>
Energy Analysis, Commissioning & Training Services
1631 Acacia Drive, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 USA
616 450 8653

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]<mailto:[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org]> On Behalf Of Demba Ndiaye
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 3:51 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] LEED Swimming Pool Sizing and ACH

ASHRAE Applications recommends a minimum of 4 ACH for natatoriums. Applying that minimum to my Proposed leads to a somewhat oversized pool unit compared to the Baseline system, which reduces my savings a lot. I couldn't find a code requirement of a minimum amount of ACH, which would allow me to size the Baseline with the same number of 4 ACH. Is somewhere aware of any such code requirement?

A related question: would LEED allow to size the Baseline at 4 ACH, even though the project is not a school?

Thanks for chime in,




[cid:image007.jpg at 01CD9638.A9EBCBB0]Demba Ndiaye, Ph.D., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP
Energy Analyst/Mechanical Engineer

Setty & Associates, Ltd.

MEP Design Engineering | Project Management
|Construction Management | Design-Build Services | Commissioning
|3040 Williams Drive, Suite 600 | Fairfax, VA 22031
|Voice 703.691.2115 | Fax 703.691.8084 | cell 571.830.9913
 demba.ndiaye at setty.com<mailto:demba.ndiaye at setty.com> | www.setty.com<http://www.setty.com/>

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