[Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take?

[RobertWichert]

I suppose the modeling software and how it treats energy might have 
something to do with it too (Note to CA and TDV), but for starters the 
modeling software will look at actual conditions in the particular place 
where the project is located.  As an absurd case, if there was no 
cooling needed, an infinite SEER would show no improvement.  SEER is for 
"typical" and each project is not necessarily typical.  For somewhere 
with a high cooling demand, SEER should have a greater effect, but 
cooling is only a small part of the energy budget.

I can appreciate that with "10% better walls, 10% better windows (or how 
about 10% less windows), 10% lower lighting wattages, 10% more efficient 
hot water, all compared to the standard, you could get 10% better using 
a SEER 14.3, but I have never gotten that result.  I suppose that I need 
to look harder at the other legs on the stool.  For me, I need SEER 17 
to get to 10% better in California with a somewhat lopsided stool.  I am 
curious what experience others have.

The theoretical answer may be "Make everything else use 10% less energy 
than standard and have a SEER 14.3 AC unit, and you're done" but to be 
honest, that doesn't ever work for me.

Maybe a better question is; have you ever gotten 10% better than ASHRAE 
90.1 with a 15 SEER AC system?  In a real project with real people 
fighting over costs, etc.?



Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
+1 916 966 9060
FAX +1 916 966 9068







===============================================

On 1/16/2013 2:25 PM, Dennis Knight wrote:
> Robert,
> SEER is a seasonal energy efficiency ratio and is unitless.  It is 
> the "cooling output during a typical cooling-season divided by the 
> total electric energy input during the same period": 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio.  A unit 
> with 10% or better seasonal cooling energy efficiency over a 13 SEER 
> unit would have a SEER rating of 14.3 or greater (1.1x13) if all other 
> operating parameters were held constant.  See link for definitions and 
> other references.
> Dennis
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:11 PM, RobertWichert <robert at wichert.org 
> <mailto:robert at wichert.org>> wrote:
>
>     My current project has very good windows, "standard" walls, you're
>     right about the lighting, it's right on budget (but residential
>     doesn't really have a budget, so the small common areas are right
>     on budget), better than standard roof.
>
>     I absolutely agree with you, Nick, on achieving 10% better, but
>     all the trades point to the others.  It's kind of comical, actually.
>
>     I guess my question on this list could be rephrased, using your
>     approach, as "What SEER is 10% better than SEER 13?"
>
>
>
>
>     Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
>     +1 916 966 9060 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209060>
>     FAX +1 916 966 9068 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209068>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     ===============================================
>
>     On 1/16/2013 12:34 PM, Nick Caton wrote:
>
>         A very simple way of looking at LEED & energy, which I come
>         back to often for discussions on that level, is to consider a
>         building's performance like a tripod with three important
>         legs:  Lights, Mechanical, and Envelope.  If any of those legs
>         is too short, the tripod falls over.
>
>         Building on that analogy, to do 10% better than a LEED
>         baseline, a good starting place is to have at least:
>         -  10% better lighting (10% lower LPD),
>         -  10% better HVAC & hot water heating (10% better
>         efficiencies), and
>         -  10% better envelope (10% more insulation in walls/roof, 10%
>         better windows).
>         For each of these, you can source the baseline/prescriptive
>         levels from the standard of your choosing.
>
>         Overperforming in one area can sometimes make up for
>         underperfomance in another, but with diminishing returns.
>          Amazing HVAC equipment/design has a harder time shining when
>         you have a poor envelope and/or the lighting designer treats
>         LPD's as a "budget" they have to use up.  For such reasons,
>         it's advisable to always consider building performance in
>         holistic fashion in early/broader discussions.
>
>         That's my (simple) take anyway!
>
>         ~Nick
>
>         NICK CATON, P.E.
>         SENIOR ENGINEER
>
>         Smith & Boucher Engineers
>         25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
>         olathe, ks 66061
>         direct 913.344.0036 <tel:913.344.0036>
>         fax 913.345.0617 <tel:913.345.0617>
>         www.smithboucher.com <http://www.smithboucher.com>
>
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>         <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>
>         [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
>         <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of
>         RobertWichert
>         Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:24 AM
>         To: EnergyPro at yahoogroups.com
>         <mailto:EnergyPro at yahoogroups.com>;
>         bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>         <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
>         Subject: [Bldg-sim] LEED - What does it take?
>
>         I know that LEED is way more than just energy, and energy is
>         way more than just equipment, but just for a basis, what SEER
>         and EER do people have to use to get 10% better than ASHRAE
>         90.1 to qualify for LEED?  I also know that you don't have to
>         use ASHRAE 90.1, but that is what I am doing.
>
>         So, what does it take?
>
>         My shot - Residential Apartment, individual DX units, 17 SEER
>         and 13 EER in California CZ 12 (Mostly cooling).
>
>            Next?
>
>
>         --
>         Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C
>         +1 916 966 9060 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209060>
>         FAX +1 916 966 9068 <tel:%2B1%20916%20966%209068>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         ===============================================
>
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>
> -- 
> M. Dennis Knight, P.E.
> Founder & CEO
> *W*hole *B*uilding *S*ystems, LLC
> P.O. Box 1845
> Mt. Pleasant, SC 29465
> Phone: 843-437-3647
> Email: dknight at wholebuildingsystems.com 
> <mailto:dknight at wholebuildingsystems.com>
> Website: www.wholebuildingsystems.com 
> <http://www.wholebuildingsystems.com>
>

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