[Bldg-sim] Really need some deep DOE-2 theology on this one..

Joe Huang yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
Thu Oct 3 12:24:51 PDT 2013
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Nick,

I have to keep reminding myself that I'm one of the few oldies left who still works 
exclusively with the BDL file and the vi editor.

Joe

Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
Moraga CA 94556
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"


On 3/10/2013 12:07 PM, Nick Caton wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> I briefly addressed that possibility in the highlighted line below.  I've done the same 
> in the past, but I think often converting surface types can be more effort than 
> necessary (I'd just delete them if it made sense for the circumstances).
>
> That said, it's no effort to share a link for completeness =).  For a procedure 
> detailing how to make an exterior surface an interior surface, here's an illustrated 
> guide I posted a while ago: 
> http://onebuilding.org/wiki/doku.php/convert_an_exterior_surface_to_an_interior_surface_detailed
>
> Most of my reply below is detailing how I deal with partially sandwiched surfaces 
> through the eQuest interface, which requires polygon edits for correction.  I don't 
> think I ever shared that previously on the lists...
>
> ~Nick
>
> cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB**
>
> **
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.*
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
>
> olathe, ks 66061
>
> direct 913.344.0036
>
> fax 913.345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com__
>
> *From:*bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Joe Huang
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 03, 2013 12:33 PM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Really need some deep DOE-2 theology on this one..
>
> Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not just change those roofs that you want 
> adiabatic to be Interior-walls and then change the INT-WALL-TYPE to be ADIABATIC ?   
> Wouldn't that take care of both the heat flow problem as well as the area numbers ?
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
> Moraga CA 94556
> yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com  <mailto:yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
> http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com  for simulation-ready weather data
> (o) (925)388-0265
> (c) (510)928-2683
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
>
> On 3/10/2013 9:43 AM, Nick Caton wrote:
>
> I'm with Karen -- I don't think you can simply explain this one away to a LEED reviewer 
> and will need to address/correct the issues you've identified
>
> If I'm not mistaken, "adiabatic" isn't an option for exterior surfaces however, at least 
> through the eQuest detailed mode interface.  You could make a distinct roof construction 
> which has an impossibly low U-value to severely limit heat transfer (to/from exterior 
> conditions), but that won't correct the roof area figures your reviewer is tuned into.
>
> In my opinion, the easiest reasonable thing to do would to assert (if you can) the 
> thermostat setpoints are the identical between floors and therefore it's reasonable to 
> not model heat transfer between floors, which means you can simply delete those 
> "non-exposed" roofs. Re-defining those surfaces to be adiabatic ceiling/floor (using an 
> interior wall construction) would have the same net effect except to define additional 
> thermal mass for the associated spaces.
>
> The "partially correct" roof surface(s) on the other hand, which are both exposed and 
> sandwiched, ought to be modified equally in both models to correct the exposed portion.  
> How simple/involved this is depends on your project's geometries.
>
> Here's a procedure for a correcting a partially sandwiched, single surface roof.  This 
> is done in detailed mode and assumes wizard-based model assembly:
>
> Navigate to 3D view, highlight the roof surface to be edited
>
> Open properties window for that surface via the component tree or right-click context menu.
>
> Identify the referenced space polygon (green text) in the surface properties
>
> Scroll down to that polygon in the component tree, right click, create a new polygon, 
> copy the one you identified -- name it anything you'll easily find in a long list.
>
> Re-highlight that roof surface in the 3D view and open its properties window
>
> Re-assign the polygon (green text) to the copied polygon with a unique name (will now be 
> red text).  Click Done.  3D view should look like nothing has changed at this point.
>
> Save a copy of your project separately before proceeding!
>
> Keeping a clear view of the roof section to be edited, now scroll down and double click 
> on the new copied polygon to pull up its vertices.
>
> From here, play around with manually removing vertices to identify which consecutive 
> series bounds the sandwiched portion of the surface. You will observe which vertices go 
> away or move in the 3D view behind if you delete/edit these inputs.
>
> Determine whether you need to define any new vertices, to define the "seam" edge where 
> exposed roof meets exposed wall.  If so, experiment with editing a vertex to determine 
> appropriate X/Y coordinates.
>
> Once you've identified the vertices to remove and add, for eQuest stability reasons I 
> try to edit existing polygon vertices before removing anything from the list (you'll 
> typically end up with fewer vertices than you started).  This is hard to put to words 
> but bear with me:  From the first vertex, identify the range which should remain (if 
> any), then edit the following vertex points to any new coordinates you may have 
> determined for additional points, then copy the series of vertices to remain from the 
> end of the list up, then finally right-click and restore default to remove all vertices 
> remaining in the list, starting from the bottom.
>
> For context, I personally do not treat new/edited vertex coordinates super-precisely 
> typically -- anything that looks close to right in the 3D view is good enough for LEED.  
> Remember you'll be doing the same edits to both models.  Don't get worked up over small 
> seams/holes in the picture -- they don't cause roof leaks in in the model!
>
> Procedure for a multi-surface roof (one per space/plenum) is the similar except you do 
> it for each partially sandwiched roof section (don't worry this gets quicker/easier 
> after the first couple).  Those fully-sandwiched sections can either be fully deleted 
> per the above logic, or else re-defined as interior floor/ceiling surfaces if deemed 
> necessary.
>
> Until you wrap up such polygon geometry edits, save separately and often, and run a 
> simulation to test everything is working okay.  I've had some mixed results doing such 
> edits with eQuest interface open.  You may see errors/cautions pop up that can be simply 
> clicked through without consequence.
>
> When all is said and done, one piece of good news is you can save, close, and copy/paste 
> all modified custom polygons between your baseline/proposed models, which makes doing 
> the same edits on the other model as simple as re-assigning polygons (with 3D view up to 
> check your work).
>
> ~Nick
>
> cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB
>
> **
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.*
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
>
> olathe, ks 66061
>
> direct 913.344.0036
>
> fax 913.345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com__
>
> *From:*bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> <mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> 
> [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Karen Walkerman
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 29, 2013 5:11 PM
> *To:* Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org <mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Really need some deep DOE-2 theology on this one..
>
> If the "roofs" don't have a zone as the outside boundary condition, then the model views 
> them as roofs exposed to the exterior.  You need to fix this. If the spaces on the other 
> side have the same thermostat setpoints, then the easiest thing to do is set the roof 
> type to "adiabatic". This will save you from having to define new polygons if the floor 
> above has different zone shapes.  For a roof that is only partially covered by the floor 
> above, you need to create the new polygons. Sorry.
>
> --
> Karen
>
> On Sep 28, 2013 9:41 PM, "Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr." <poleary1969 at gmail.com 
> <mailto:poleary1969 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> this sounds like you have multiple shells in one model for this to occur?  i'm pretty 
> sure equest views an exterior wall/roof as an exterior wall/roof even if it is bounded 
> by an interior wall.  i had this problem come up on one of my own models where i ended 
> up having a building wing meet the building trunk & as i had put them in as 2 separate 
> shells equest did not recognize the dividing wall where the wing met the trunk as being 
> an interior wall & assigned it (via the wizard) an exterior wall definition.  i didn't 
> catch this until reviewing the unmet load hour ss-r & s-va reports & couldn't figure out 
> why the load was so high.  changed the definition of the wall to interior (with a door) 
> in detailed mode and the unmet load hours went to zero and the load came down.
>
> my understanding (in my case) is that if you create multiple shells and place them with 
> a common wall that you want to be an interior the shell rotations need to be zero, even 
> if you have the separation between the two shells occur at a 45 deg angle (then ask mr. 
> architect about that one).
>
> On 9/28/13 4:47 PM, John Aulbach wrote:
>
> Hi Gang:
>
> I need to elite for this one, and you know who you are..
>
> I am reviewing another party's eQuest model submitted for LEED. The reviewer noted that 
> the roof area far exceeded the actual building footprint.
>
> Well, guess why? Somehow, the other party made several floors ROOFS instead of ceilings. 
> I might be able to simply turn the exterior spaces into interior ceilings, but one roof 
> (over an unheated underground garage) is partially uder the building and partially 
> exposed to the "sidewalk/entrance" of the building.
>
> The BIG Kahuena is this..if a space is crammed next to an adjacent space and one of the 
> spaces claims an Exterioir surface between them, does DOE-2 think that Exterior surface 
> is seeing outdoor conditions? Or does it ignore such a thin and merely considers the 
> heat transfer between the spaces (like the wall/roof is NOT exposed to the outdoors)?
>
> My approach is this (unless you disagree)..leave the Exterior wall/roof along and 
> explain that the model (now in Detailed Edit form) would need major surgery to correct 
> to show actual roof area. Having the "roofs" there versus floors will not change the 
> thermodynamics of heat transfer.
>
> I yield to the floor.
>
> John Aulbach, PE
>
>
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