No subject


Thu May 8 09:17:00 PDT 2014


expensive, particularly when you have to rate the HX for high pressures.
There are two kinds of plate HXs, gasketed and soldered.  Getting a
soldered type sort of defeats one of the main advantages of a
plate-frame type HX, its expandability.  The gasketed type for
high-pressure applications are less in supply and as a result cost a
lot.  The highest-pressure rating I've seen for a gasketed-type
plate-frame HX is 300 psia.

=20

My following comments apply to a gasketed-type plate-frame heat
exchanger.

=20

(1) How high do you want to go?  This is really an indirect question
related to the fill pressure of the system, the location of the
expansion tank, and the location of the HX in the system.  Note that
when you fill the system, you need an addition 2 to 5 psig of pressure
to allow the water to spit out of the top of the system, ensuring the
entire system is filled and most (if not all) of the air is out.  (2) By
putting the HX at the pump discharge means you will feel the full impact
of the dynamic head of the pump and static head of the system at that
location.  Not the best place in large systems like campuses or district
energy plants. (3) When including the comments provided in (2)
previously, one can then note that you can eliminate the dynamic head
from the equation.  (4) HX exposed to all of the static head plus the
dynamic head depending upon the placement of the pump in relation to the
HX.  (5) Your static head is minimum, and dynamic head is again only
that contribution depending on the pump's placement in relation to the
HX.  Note this is probably your cheapest plate-frame HX since the
pressure is probably the lowest (assuming the expansion tank is also
located at the suction inlet of the pump).  (6) I don't know exactly
what you mean here.

=20

As for what are the issues when the HX is replaced with other equipment
such as chillers and boilers:  this will depend upon the system you are
dealing with.  Are there existing chillers and boilers being displaced
by this replacement?  Why?  Is it of economic benefit to the owner?
Higher efficient device?  Perhaps you are referring to the approach
temperature.  Note the closer the approach temperature, the more
expensive the heat exchanger.  However, the closer the approach
temperature, the more efficient the system.  For example, if you have a
chilled-water system circulating water at a 14 delta T, and you have a
heat exchanger with a 2 degree approach, then the load side of the heat
exchanger operates at a 10 degree delta T.  If you have the same chiller
system circulating water at 14 degrees delta T and you have a 1-degree
approach, then your load side of the heat exchanger can operate at a
12-degree delta T.  As you can intuitively see, the one-degree approach
HX provides for a more efficient system.

=20

=20

Sincerely,

=20

Eric Kirchhoff, PE

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Varkie Thomas [mailto:Varkie.Thomas at som.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 3:05 PM
To: bldg-sim at gard.com
Subject: [bldg-sim] Pump location

=20

I am looking for information (articles, research papers, case studies)
on the effect of the location of the pump relative to a plate and frame
heat exchanger in a closed piping system.  Some of the issues are (1)
the vertical height of the piping system (1000' to 2000'), how high can
you go, (2) pumping thru HX, (3) pumping away from HX, (4) pump and HX
located at bottom of system, (5) pump and HX at top of system, and (6)
pump start up.  What are the issues when the HX is replaced with other
equipment such as chillers and boilers?

=20

Varkie Thomas

Skidmore, Owings & Merrill

312-360-4467

=20

=20
=20
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks for all the information I
received.  The questions about the vertical height limits used in =
closed
piping systems for tall buildings, the alternative locations for pumps =
and
equipment in piping systems, and determining the number of and location =
of
mechanical floors came up when viewing piping riser diagrams at a =
graduate
course at IIT-Chicago. 300 psi is equivalent to 690 ft (about 50 =
floors), but
plate & frame HX’s can be designed for higher pressures up to =
450 psi
(over 1000 ft).  Shell & tube HXs are designed for even higher
pressures so why not break the piping system every 1000 ft with a HX =
when
pumping say district CHW up to cooling coils at say 2000 ft.  The =
riser
diagram that I presented to the class was based on a real project and =
showed
plate & frame HXs and the pump location on the discharge side of the
HX.  I was hoping to find published literature on this topic and on =
piping
systems design for high-rise buildings in general explaining the pros =
&
cons of different piping arrangements.  </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Riser diagrams and equipment =
schedules on
HVAC, Plumbing & Fire Protection drawings identify most of the =
energy
consuming products in the base building with a few exceptions such as
elevators.  All energy consuming products in the building and their
operating profiles have to be entered as input into energy programs to =
get the
correct electrical demand costs.  Is there any interest in =
developing a
teaching design manual for graduate courses in “Energy Efficient =
Building
Design” and “Energy Codes & Code Compliance”? =
 The
manual would be developed with the support of architectural-engineering =
design
firms and would emphasize case studies of different types of =
buildings.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Varkie Thomas</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>, Ph.D., P.E., CEM</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Adjunct Professor, Illinois =
Institute of
Technology.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Kirchhoff, Eric
[mailto:EKirchhoff at semprasolutions.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, December =
17, 2003
6:42 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font =
size=3D2
 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>bldg-sim at gard.com</span></f=
ont><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [bldg-sim] Pump =
location</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>From =
design
experience, plate-frame heat exchangers can be quite expensive, =
particularly
when you have to rate the HX for high pressures.  There are two =
kinds of plate
HXs, gasketed and soldered.  Getting a soldered type sort of =
defeats one
of the main advantages of a plate-frame type HX, its =
expandability.  The
gasketed type for high-pressure applications are less in supply and as a =
result
cost a lot.  The highest-pressure rating I’ve seen for a
gasketed-type plate-frame HX is 300 psia.</span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>My =
following
comments apply to a gasketed-type plate-frame heat =
exchanger.</span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>(1) =
How high do you
want to go?  This is really an indirect question related to the =
fill
pressure of the system, the location of the expansion tank, and the =
location of
the HX in the system.  Note that when you fill the system, you need =
an
addition 2 to 5 psig of pressure to allow the water to spit out of the =
top of
the system, ensuring the entire system is filled and most (if not all) =
of the
air is out.  (2) By putting the HX at the pump discharge means you =
will
feel the full impact of the dynamic head of the pump and static head of =
the
system at that location.  Not the best place in large systems like =
campuses
or district energy plants. (3) When including the comments provided in =
(2)
previously, one can then note that you can eliminate the dynamic head =
from the
equation.  (4) HX exposed to all of the static head plus the =
dynamic head
depending upon the placement of the pump in relation to the HX.  =
(5) Your
static head is minimum, and dynamic head is again only that contribution
depending on the pump’s placement in relation to the HX.  =
Note this
is probably your cheapest plate-frame HX since the pressure is probably =
the
lowest (assuming the expansion tank is also located at the suction inlet =
of the
pump).  (6) I don’t know exactly what you mean =
here.</span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>As =
for what are the
issues when the HX is replaced with other equipment such as chillers and
boilers:  this will depend upon the system you are dealing =
with.  Are
there existing chillers and boilers being displaced by this =
replacement? 
Why?  Is it of economic benefit to the owner?  Higher =
efficient
device?  Perhaps you are referring to the approach =
temperature.  Note
the closer the approach temperature, the more expensive the heat
exchanger.  However, the closer the approach temperature, the more
efficient the system.  For example, if you have a chilled-water =
system
circulating water at a 14 delta T, and you have a heat exchanger with a =
2
degree approach, then the load side of the heat exchanger operates at a =
10
degree delta T.  If you have the same chiller system circulating =
water at
14 degrees delta T and you have a 1-degree approach, then your load side =
of the
heat exchanger can operate at a 12-degree delta T.  As you can =
intuitively
see, the one-degree approach HX provides for a more efficient =
system.</span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:windowtext'> </span></font></span></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Sincerely,</span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'>Eric Kirchhoff, =
PE</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
class=3DEmailStyle21><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> </span></font><font =
size=3D2
 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
 color:black'>Varkie Thomas</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>
[mailto:Varkie.Thomas at som.com]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, December =
17, 2003
3:05 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font =
size=3D2
 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
 color:black'>bldg-sim at gard.com</span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [bldg-sim] Pump =
location</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I am
looking for information (articles, research papers, case studies) on the =
effect
of the location of the pump relative to a plate and frame heat exchanger =
in a
closed piping system.  Some of the issues are (1) the vertical =
height of
the piping system (1000’ to 2000’), how high can you go, (2)
pumping thru HX, (3) pumping away from HX, (4) pump and HX located at =
bottom of
system, (5) pump and HX at top of system, and (6) pump start up.  =
What are
the issues when the HX is replaced with other equipment such as chillers =
and
boilers?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Varkie
 Thomas</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Skidmore,
Owings & Merrill</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>312-360-4467</spa=
n></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font></p>

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