[Bldg-sim] Swimming pool lighting with 90.1

[Nicholas Caton]

Cam and Elizabeth are right, I did not pick up with certainty in my first
reading that both cases were indoor, so I figured it might be appropriate
to point out pools are more explicitly addressed on the exterior side of
things.



With the understanding the pools are definitely located in interior spaces,
you’re definitely going to be safer sticking to the indoor approaches if
that produces acceptable results.



Space-by-space is naturally likely to produce better results if you can
justify any of the higher Class LPD’s.



~Nick





*NICK CATON, P.E.*
*Owner*



*Caton Energy Consulting*
  1150 N. 192nd St., #4-202

  Shoreline, WA 98133
  office:  785.410.3317

www.catonenergy.com



*From:* Elizabeth Gillmor [mailto:elizabeth at energetics-eng.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, June 04, 2015 10:31 AM
*To:* Cam Fitzgerald
*Cc:* Julien.Dutel at mern.gouv.qc.ca; ncaton at catonenergy.com;
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Swimming pool lighting with 90.1



Former lighting designer here.



You should use the "gymnasium" number, and use a space by space calc.  If
you think about it, a natatorium is the same space size/volume and
occupancy as a gym, with similar footcandle requirements for both
recreation and competition.  I have successfully used this on many LEED
EAc1 submittals.  Electrical engineers for these projects use the gymnasium
number for COMCheck as well.  It's definitely the norm.



Good luck!

Elizabeth


*Elizabeth Gillmor  **PE, LC, LEED AP*



*e n e r g e t i c s  **consulting engineers, llc*

energetics-eng.com

c 303.619.0091



On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Cam Fitzgerald <fitzgerald at sevengroup.com>
wrote:

Hello Julien,



Usually, Nick’s advice is spot on, but I have to disagree that it would be
appropriate to apply an exception for exterior lighting to an indoor pool.
I expect the exclusion for outdoor playing fields, etc relates to light
pollution limitations, allowing player safety to supersede the
restrictions. This would be akin to using the parking garage and parking
lot lighting to be sued interchangeably. Keep in mind that exterior
lighting is a mandatory provision and interior lighting is a prescriptive
measure – apples and oranges. I think you are on the right track with the
gymnasium alternatives. Section 3 includes specific definitions for
interior versus exterior spaces and that should be what determines whether
you use Table 9.4.5 or 9.5.1/9.6.1.



Just my 2 cents J





Cam Fitzgerald



Energy Opportunities/a 7group company





*From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf
Of *Julien.Dutel at mern.gouv.qc.ca
*Sent:* Thursday, June 04, 2015 12:13 PM
*To:* ncaton at catonenergy.com; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Swimming pool lighting with 90.1



Hi Nick,



The question was for a demonstrating prescriptive compliance.

Thanks for your quick and detailed answer  (I’m really surprised that we
could invoke an outdoor lighting exception for an interior lighting!)



Julien



*De :* Nicholas Caton [mailto:ncaton at catonenergy.com
<ncaton at catonenergy.com>]
*Envoyé :* 4 juin 2015 11:54
*À :* Dutel, Julien (BEIE); bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Objet :* RE: [Bldg-sim] Swimming pool lighting with 90.1



Hi Julien,



For either case, and even if the pools are interior to the building, I
would consider citing “Lighting for swimming pools and water features” is
under the exempted list for exterior lighting power calculations under
90.1-2010, and more broadly “athletic playing areas” under 90.1-2007.



Evoking that exception, you could

A)     have the baseline match the proposed (for a PRM model),

B)      omit that lighting power entirely (for demonstrating prescriptive
compliance), or else

C)      the stage is then set for you to differentiate from the baseline by
demonstrating how your design saves energy relative to “standard” pool
lighting by way of separate/exceptional calculations.



If you want to wrap into your interior LPD regardless,

1.       Gymnasium/Sports Arena/Exercise Center seem to be the likely
candidates for BAM.

2.       Class I through Class IV comes from IESNA Handbook/RP-6, and is
used to differentiate illuminance recommendations based upon the degree of
competition (ranging from professional/national at Class I down to
amateur/recreational at class IV).  I’d suggest having your lighting
designer determine which set of illumination recommendations best matches
the photometric calculations for pool surface/deck surface illumination.



~Nick



*NICK CATON, P.E.*
*Owner*



*Caton Energy Consulting*
  1150 N. 192nd St., #4-202

  Shoreline, WA 98133
  office:  785.410.3317

www.catonenergy.com



*From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf
Of *Julien.Dutel at mern.gouv.qc.ca
*Sent:* Thursday, June 04, 2015 7:42 AM
*To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* [Bldg-sim] Swimming pool lighting with 90.1



Hello,



I have two concrete cases where I’m embarrassed regarding lighting in a
swimming pool with 90.1.



*Case 1 : A swimming pool building (the building  is a swimming pool)*

In the lighting section of 90.1, the Building Area Method (9.5) has no
building area type corresponding specifically to a swimming pool. My guess
would be to choose the “Gymnasium” because as a swimming pool, there is
high ceiling and locker room.



Using the Building Area Method, is the “Gymnasium” a correct assumption for
a swimming pool building ?



*Case 2 : A swimming pool in a residential building*

  Assuming that the “multifamily”’s LPD doesn’t allow me to  comply to the
Building Area Method, and I decide to choose the space by space method. My
guess would be to choose a building-specific space type in the list “Sport
Arena”, but I’m block by these unanswered question
<http://energy-models.com/forum/energy-modeling-software/trace-700/leed-and-ashrae-901/lighting-power-density-space-space-meth>
: what is the meaning of the class ? :

·         Court sport arena – class 4

·         Court sport arena – class 2

·         Court sport arena – class 1



Using the Space by Space Method, what would be the best building-specific
space type for the area dedicated to the pool ?





Thanks,



Julien



*Julien Dutel,* ing., CEM, CMVP*.*

Direction des secteurs résidentiel, institutionnel et des affaires

Bureau de l'efficacité et de l'innovation énergétiques

Ministère des Ressources naturelles

5700, 4e Avenue Ouest, B-406

Québec (Québec)  G1H 6R1

Téléphone : 418 627-6379, poste 8060

Téléphone sans frais : 1 877 727-6655

Télécopieur : 418 643-5828

 http://www.efficaciteenergetique.mrn.gouv.qc.ca


_______________________________________________
Bldg-sim mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20150604/fc673e44/attachment.htm>