[Equest-users] Would cheaper fuel be credited?

Vikram Sami VSami at lasarchitect.com
Thu Sep 10 11:39:15 PDT 2009

I am guessing that if the Bamboo is not produced on site, its not really eligible for the on-site renewable energy credit. It¡¯s (IMHO) analogous to buying renewable energy credits from an off-site wind farm or solar farm and taking credit for it as on-site generated. In reality, the fuel is not generated on site, it is being used on site.  The credit is for production. . 


But then again, I¡¯m not the one reviewing this. 


Vikram Sami, LEED AP 
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366 



From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of YinRic
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 10:27 PM
To: ncaton at smithboucher.com; Equest User
Cc: rrosen at taitem.com
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Would cheaper fuel be credited?


Hi All,
I have got LEED v3. It is stated that the following biofuels are considered renewable energy under EAc2 credit:

*	Untreated wood waste, including mill residues
*	Agricultural crops and waste
*	Animal waste and other organic waste
*	Landfill gas

Energy production based on the following biofuels are not eligible for this credit

*	Foresty biomass waste other than mill residue
*	Wood coated with paints, plastics, or formica

What makes the situation even more complicated is that the bamboo pellet is not producted on site, but purchased from an off-site suppplier. I would be happy if it is producted on site, but there is no enough bamboo for burning and no one work on that...


Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Would cheaper fuel be credited?
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 13:56:40 -0500
From: ncaton at smithboucher.com
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
CC: cesseric at hotmail.com; paul.riemer at dunhameng.com; rrosen at taitem.com

I¡¯ve been reading the bamboo-pellet discussion with some mild interest¡­ but it occurred to me today ¨C perhaps trying to frame this as a ¡°heating fuel source¡± within EA1 is a backwards perspective for a LEED project.  If the bamboo is a renewable thermal heating source, doesn¡¯t it kinda sound a lot more like ¡°on-site renewable energy sources¡± EA Credit 2?  If you seek and achieve credits in that manner, you get to lop such calculated energy off of your final proposed cost results under EA1 afterwards, as though the energy were free.


I advise further careful reading of EA Credit 2.  The 2.2 handbook (I don¡¯t have the v3 at hand) has a table defining specific biofuels as ¡°renewable-energy.¡±  It¡¯s not clear based on the discussion so far where your bamboo pellets really fit in the excluded/included renewable biomass materials listings.  EA Credit 2 is definitely structured (again in v2.2) to accommodate biomass fuels for the use of space heating, water heating, or electricity generation.








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direct 913 344.0036

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Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com <http://www.smithboucher.com/>  


From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of YinRic
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 4:29 AM
To: paul.riemer at dunhameng.com; rrosen at taitem.com; Equest User
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Would cheaper fuel be credited?


Yes, this is a special case, a group of small houses in a resort to be LEED certified. The owner wants to make the project the most green resort in the world...so fossil fuel is in general avoided. I agree that wood pellet appears to be similar with fossil fuel, like coal, although it is not fossil and can be renewed within less than 10 years. I am still expecting an answer about baseline fuel vs. proposed fuel, shall this be:
1. wood pellet vs. wood pellet
2. electricity vs. wood pellet
3. natural gas vs. wood pellet
4. other possibilities?
It seems to me that 1 or 3 shall be more convenient to use than 2, which is, as Paul said, "risky". But if 3 is used, why natural gas, not coal or oil?  
Any further comments are welcome.


From: Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com
To: rrosen at taitem.com; cesseric at hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 12:30:57 -0500
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Would cheaper fuel be credited?

I probably would not count on a favorable LEED EAc1 review on this.   A literal reading my lead you to say Bamboo falls under "Electric and Other" in table G.3.1.1A and thus your baseline is electric heat but that seems like a risky claim.   I would be more inclined to read "Fossil Fuel" as "Purchased Combustible Fuel" because I do not think the standard anticipated wood fired heating in its scope of buildings.






From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Rob Rosen
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 11:57 AM
To: 'YinRic'; 'Equest User'
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Would cheaper fuel be credited?


ASHRAE Appendix G Modeling Guidelines Tables 3.1.1A and 3.1.1B give the baseline HVAC system for each type of building. The baseline heating fuel in all cases is either fossil fuel or electricity. I believe that a different fuel may be used in the proposed building, if it is a purchased, renewable fuel (such as wood pellets). 


Appendix G Section 2.4 Exception says that if the renewable fuel is site-generated or free (such as burning waste wood from packing crates), then it cannot be modeled as a proposed fuel for the purpose of calculating building performance.


Rob Rosen

Senior Energy Analyst

Taitem Engineering

110 S. Albany St.

Ithaca, NY 14850

Phone: 607-277-1118 ext 110

Fax: 607-277-2119



From: YinRic [mailto:cesseric at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:18 AM
To: Equest User
Subject: [Equest-users] Would cheaper fuel be credited?

Hi Users,
In a project, the client wants to use a cheap local fuel (bamboo pellet, rapidly renewable) to reduce annual energy cost and score high on EAc1. I am wondering if in baseline, the fuel must al so be bamboo pellet or could be something else, say, natural gas, the price of which is higher per thermal unit? I do not seem to find where in ASHRAE 90.1-2004 dictates that in baseline and proposed, the fuel must be the same. Any comments are appreciated. 
Rick, PE, LEED AP  


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