[Equest-users] Simulation with Baseline model, Thanks for Your Advice. I am unable to figure it out.

[Carol Gardner]

This is not a personal reflection on me, I'm sure, but I have never "got
lucky, WRT App G systems, of course.

My process is just like yours, Pasha, but I have never even been tempted to
have the Baseline and Proposed buildings in one model. Too much opportunity
to screw up. To add to what you do, I try to remember to rename - Save As -
my file each morning when I get started, that's providing I haven't been up
all night modeling away and there's an actual morning start. I Save As
"ModelName Proposed 7-23-10" or something like that. I find it really
helpful  not only in the short term but in the long term. Eventually, should
I ever complete the dam model, I will get rid of the interim versions and
just save the FinalProposed and FinalBaseline. If I'm working on a real
complex son-of -a-gun, I may even do a SaveAs with another cue to let me
know what it is Just In Case. I especially do this when I'm editing in the
.inp file, which you all should learn to do sometime. It's really rough to
lose a whole nights work because the new version of eQUEST mysteriously
stripped out all of your data leaving only the headings of each section.
Much better to only lose 5 hours worth of work. You can do it much faster
the second time, right?

I have never run 2 models on 2 machines in my career. I am totally certain
I'd screw up.....

Not bitter,
Carol

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Pasha Korber-Gonzalez <
pasha.pkconsulting at gmail.com> wrote:

> My approach (when doing LEED/ASHRAE 90.1 compliance models) varies with
> using one model file (one .pd2 file only) or using 2 model files (two .pd2
> files) depending on what my proposed and baseline HVAC systems are.
>
> For example, if the Appendix G baseline HVAC system is #7 (VAV with chilled
> water) and my proposed design systems are VAV with geothermal I choose to
> set up two different model files (two different .pd2 files.)    My actual
> approach would be this:
>
>    1. create my proposed design model file in the wizard to nail down
>    specific building footprint shape, custom zoning, custom windows, (and a few
>    more specified inputs that are applied across the whole model.)  Then
>    I "SAVE AS" a copy with the key word "Wiz" somewhere in the title.
>    2. With my new "SAVE AS" copy of my wizard file I rename it with
>    "ddedit" somewhere in the file name.  I then switch to ddedit mode and
>    continue - until I'm finished creating my entire *proposed design model
>    file*.   I run the simulation a few times to at least make sure that I
>    have a clean sim file (i.e. no errors.)
>    3. I now do a "SAVE AS" again on my ddedit file and name the new copy
>    "xxx-projectname-ddedit BASELINE" so that this new file is reflected as my
>    ASHRAE 90.1 equivalent sim file.   I go in and 'turn down' my proposed
>    performance numbers to be equal to Appendix G baseline requirements.  Keep
>    in mind that in this example I have set up a VAV with geothermal system in
>    the proposed, therefore; I now have to change the plant & air-side inputs to
>    reflect the requirements for the App G baseline system 7 thus removing the
>    geothermal system components and setting up a standard chiller & boiler
>    plant system to serve a standard VAV air-side systems in my baseline model
>    file.
>    4. Sim note:  this is Pasha's approach because it is easiest for me to
>    manage my inputs most efficiently.  Other simulators will have thier own
>    style and the key is in how you manage your input data and many variables to
>    produce the correct simulations.  The system changes can be made in the
>    Parametric Tool within your first .pd2 file, but for Pasha this type of
>    variable management can get confusing sometimes and I choose to take a few
>    extra input steps in order for me to manage my inputs best.
>    5. After I have two .pd2 files (proposed & ASHRAE baseline) and I know
>    that both files are clean (free of errors) I can now continue with my
>    engineering analysis of the sim results.  Once the baseline file results are
>    normalized close to realistic expectations from reference data for the
>    building type I am working on, then I can finish tweaking anything in my
>    proposed file to ensure that I am showing a realistic amount of energy
>    savings (given the ECM's that are applied against the baseline model.)
>    6. Final quality checks are then performed (i.e. reduced hours outside
>    of throttling range, etc.)  until I am to a point where I am satisfied with
>    the sim results of both files.  Now I can report my sim results to the
>    client, design team, and/or LEED documentation if we are ready for submittal
>    documents to be completed.
>
>
> This is just my personal approach, I think its in line with how many other
> simulators approach thier projects.  Just note that if for some reason I
> 'get lucky' on a project where the proposed design HVAC systems are exactly
> the same as the App G baseline HVAC system then I don't really have to work
> in 2 different .pd2 files because it is the case that my HVAC
> systems components are already setup correctly I can just work within one
> .pd2 file and make ECM adjustments via the parametric tool only.
>
> Every simulator will develop thier own style of modeling and as long as you
> can manage your inputs and verify your outputs, then let your own style
> work for you.
>
> pkg
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Martz, Amanda <amartz at klingstubbins.com>wrote:
>
>>  The problem is that the difference between the baseline and the proposed
>> isn’t just a difference in system types, there are other factors involved
>> such as minimum flow rates, pump power, fan power, etc. Read appendix G, all
>> of those criteria need to be implemented in the baseline. The proposed model
>> should match your own design. I don’t think all of these changes could be
>> done within the same model.
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *tim
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:40 AM
>> *To:* 'Demba Ndiaye'; 'Guoguang Le'; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Simulation with Baseline model,Thanks for
>> Your Advice. I am unable to figure it out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, and my experiment didn’t work by the way – must be why no comments
>> were made.  I thought it was working but alas the GSHP plant equipment
>> button is greyed after going back into the wizard. so I suppose there is no
>> way to compare LEED baseline with proposed in one eQuest model?
>>
>>
>>
>> It did “appear” to work.  The geothermal had a higher electric usage and
>> way lower gas consumption – this made sense to me since the geothermal would
>> have pumps & more intricate controls and the PSZ would eat up the gas in
>> winter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, now I am planning to have 2 model files and use the EEM wizard to
>> rename the runs appropriately.  I will then have to generate my own
>> comparison reports if I want them I suppose.  Had to find percent
>> improvement on my own anyway.  Attached is a simple spreadsheet showing the
>> comparison.  There may be a template for this, I’m just wandering through
>> the energy simulation forest for the first time so any thoughts/feedback
>> would be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe I need some training…
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Demba Ndiaye
>>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:17 AM
>> *To:* Guoguang Le; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Simulation with Baseline model, Thanks for
>> Your Advice. I am unable to figure it out.
>>
>>
>>
>> eQuest uses “Baseline” to refer to your base model, with EEMs in mind. The
>> word has actually nothing to do with either 90.1 or T24.
>>
>>
>>
>> For example, if you are doing a LEED model and create two models: one
>> proposed and one LEED baseline. Both will be called “Baseline” by eQuest.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________
>>
>> Demba NDIAYE
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Guoguang Le
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 21, 2010 10:09 PM
>> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* [Equest-users] Simulation with Baseline model, Thanks for Your
>> Advice. I am unable to figure it out.
>>
>>
>>
>> To eQuest Expert,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a question to beg your answer. For an equest model, after I input
>> some data and then run simulation, the report showed "baseline". What does
>> this "baseline" mean? Is it meaning min requirement by Ashrae 90.1, T24,
>> based on what I just input data or something else? In other words, how to
>> run baseline model by using eQuest?
>>
>> I appreciate your time very much! Thanks Lot!!!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> James Le
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Equest-users mailing list
>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
>> EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Equest-users mailing list
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to
> EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>
>


-- 
Carol Gardner PE
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20100723/129c87d0/attachment-0002.htm>