[Equest-users] dd wizard - invalid argument
Nick Caton
ncaton at smithboucher.com
Tue Jun 15 08:18:35 PDT 2010
Bruce,
Your "reinitialization breakthrough" has my eyebrows at attention! I've
previously dug to figure out what the "reevaluate components" and
various "reinit... " options under the 'Tools' menu are supposed to do,
and have until now come up empty-handed...
Are you saying these functions perform something of a "cleaning duty"?
If anyone can offer a complete explanation of these tools (or point me
to a help file / search term), that'd be one less thing on my "huh?"
list =).
Aaron,
Bruce has already said most of what I'd contribute to your situation - I
might only add that I now make a conscious point to do a bit of rounding
(to the first decimal place) whenever I define vertical (z) coordinates
and floor-to-floor heights for different shells. It can really
streamline things and make it easier to get the geometries right on the
first go. Recently I've thrown together fairly complex geometries for a
5-level, 5-shell school, and I found making a quick reference riser in
my notepad margin for each floor's z-coordinates streamlined the process
perfectly.
I'll be very curious to hear whether the "reinit" or "reevaluate"
options help your situation - if you do have pitched roofs to model,
I'll share that I've had nothing but inconsistent troubles in the past
using the wizard-generated pitched roofs - If so, I might encourage you
or anyone else to consider whether a wizard-generated flat roof, mildly
edited later in detailed mode (adding tilt and/or breaking into 2
pieces), might give a fair thermal approximation.
Pasha and Bruce are right - a lot of people in the industry make energy
modeling out to be unrealistically complex and accurate -the end-users
(I'm raising my hand) are occasionally the worst culprit! When you go
to the hardware store to buy a hammer, would you pay for a
gold-interlaced hammer with pretty tassels, matching fashionable
holster, built-in compass, and aerodynamic spoilers? Not to hammer
things with... You'd simply buy a hammer. With eQuest, and indeed any
energy modeling software, we're tasked with building a tool (the model)
to ultimately perform a simple task. If a nail ultimately gets driven
into the wood straight, only hammer-connoisseurs might ever care how
complex of a hammer put it there.
~Nick
PS: If anyone actually owns a hammer like that - yes, I am making fun of
you =).
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Bruce
Easterbrook
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:21 AM
To: Pasha Korber-Gonzalez
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] dd wizard - invalid argument
Thanks Pasha, positive feedback is nice. I'm on a roll after a 60 hour
project. Not big, but complex. As it is fresh in my mind I have been
able to share a few new tidbits I have learned off the top of my head.
Unfortunately a few were learned the hard way, again. The
reinitialization about the BDL file seems to be major, to me anyway. It
seems before I was chasing a few phantom errors which I had actually
fixed but didn't realize were fixed. Leading me down a path to never
never land thinking my fix was no good. The current building had
multiple intersecting cottage roofs on top and multiple flat roofs on
lower levels. Didn't even go there, the model has all flat roofs.
Thermo wise it will be close. That is another thing for new users, your
3D model does not have to look like the architects pretty rendering.
eQuest is a thermodynamic idealization. There are limits on how much
your client wants to pay to get to get a good mechanical system. Sorry
architects, but I do find it encouraging some of you are dabbling with
eQuest. Understanding the total project and systems is the key to a
great building and maybe a little more appreciation when your project
lands on my desk, lol. I'm also a Joe Lstiburek fan like Nick. Another
point I would like to make is about reality on the building site. When
the plumbing contractor drops a drain from a toilet that got moved right
where your main supply duct was supposed to go, the sheet metal
contractor uses 4 short 90's to avoid it, worrying about your AHU ESP of
2.55 " WC or 2.6 " WC is crazy. Real life HVAC is not accurate to .01,
except the eQuest geometry. Besides my up to date ASHRAE manuals my
next most valued quick reference is the fifth edition of Fan Engineering
by the Buffalo Forge Company, copyright 1949. There are very few
current HVAC applications not covered in this manual and with a psych
chart (included) and a slide rule you are in the ball park with most of
todays systems at least as far as they actually get installed. Buffalo
Forge was Willis Carrier's first engineering job after graduating from
Cornell (1901), in an "experimental department", the future "father of
the AC industry". I have been in one old building with a cast BF fan
system still running like the day it was installed, and the occupants
still satisfied after 70? years. My point, we have better tools,
computers, eQuest, HAP, Trace, infinitely better control systems and
sensors, hi-efficiency motors, etc, but the basic engineering is many
decades old. We are still re-inventing the wheel with new twists to
deal with the current reality. Calculating to .0001 is still, in
reality, irrelevant in HVAC. The key is to simplify the model so it
reflects the building reality reasonably close, have the model flexible
enough to be able to test different ideas, configurations and use your
computing horsepower to run simulations to test the different
hypotheses. The model is the key, once it is running reliably and
accurately, a new scenario is a dozen or 2 key strokes and a press of
the sim button. The other defining reality is how much your customer
wants to pay for this information, somewhere between as little as
possible and not much, lol.
Time to get some sleep!
Bruce
On 15/06/2010 12:10 AM, Pasha Korber-Gonzalez wrote:
Bruce-you've been comin' in pretty heavy yourself on this forum and I
concur with your explanations & comments/advice to Aaron and other new
users of eQuest. Put very well and sincere. Bruce stated the reality
of the need for accuracy & efficiency in setting up any energy model.
After foolishly having faith in my eQuest files' ability to run smoothly
from start to finish, I have adopted the "Save As" approach for all of
my project files, and like Bruce stated, "Never get 30 hours in without
testing and running it many times on the path...the simulation at this
point is for confirmation your model is running and [free of errors.]"
Aaron-you might want to send us your .pd2 & .inp files so we can see the
error(s) you are experiencing. I think Bruce is on the right track that
it might be an external surface. Do you have a pitched roof on your
model?
Pasha
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Bruce Easterbrook <bruce5 at bellnet.ca>
wrote:
You did have an error in your electric rate but obviously if it is
not now involved it probably is not the main problem. That leaves the
roof. If you have several custom floors when you create them in the DD
wizard they will all have roofs. If they are stacked you will have
embedded roofs if you have not gone in and removed them which you can't
do in the DD wizard. They will only effect floor to floor heat transfer
and maybe eQuest will give them a solar load I don't know. eQuest will
run with them if they are technically (geometrically) correct. The
problem is you can't see them in the 3D view if they are covered by
other floors and easy visual check to see if they are geometrically
correct is not possible. That will cause eQuest to crash. You may be
able to cheat a little. eQuest will show external surfaces in a red
outline in the 3D view. If this is may be your problem go to the
building shell tab to one of the floors and highlight the roof in tree
pane. Switch to your 3D view and hold your control key and with your
left mouse held down rotate the 3D model. It will switch to wire frame
and the roof surface will be highlighted in red. I can't remember how
to turn on the wire frame view but that is possible to do as well.
Maybe someone monitoring this will refresh my memory. I think you have
a roof geometry problem and geometry problems are a pain in the ass.
The other thing I have noticed and I'm not sure quite why but if
there was an error and you have corrected it, the program may have not
actually accommodated the change yet. My guess is, the program runs in
a linear fashion start to finish. A change will probably get added to
the end of the program as a addition or change. When the program is run
again it is using the original file and then the additions, but the
error is still there and the program hits it first and crashes. I have
found when doing major changes it is best just to save the file, close
it and re-open it. eQuest will then reorder the file and it probably
won't crash if you did correct the error. Run a simulation and you will
get much better error messages as to what the problem is. I have
adjusted my trouble shooting technique to this method in the last few
weeks and have seen many errors disappear once the file is
reinitialized. It has saved many hours of banging my head on the wall.
This is not specifically for you Aaron, just a general observation
(tangent). I have noticed a few guides in the last week or so to help
new comers but no one has mentioned reinitializing the project. It may
be an obscure point but I think it saved me about 30% of my hours on my
latest project. One of the biggest things with eQuest is to get it
running and keep it running as you build your model. Start simple,
initially, heat transfer surfaces are important, zones are important,
windows are not, schedules are not, utilities are not, constructions are
not, layers are not, HVAC systems and their zones are not. Geometry is
CRITICAL. eQuest will choke with a vertex error of .01, Carol(e) is
"anal on this point", lol, but she knows what she is talking about. She
and Pasha both agree and no doubt will add wisdom if they have any
pointers to add. I should add a plug for Nick as well, another heavy
hauler on this site with major experience beyond his years. Start
simple, get the box(es), and surfaces correct. Zones initially can be
artificial with the future HVAC system in mind but also to assist with
the geometry. Specifically, in dealing with other floors and roofs. An
un-named eQuest instructor will attest to this, it is easier to
manipulate your zoning to assist in your geometry problems and put them
together later to accommodate your HVAC model than create the surfaces
on the fly in detailed edit. Especially with 40 students watching!
eQuest can be humbling even for experts. NEVER get 30 hours in without
testing and running it many times on the path. Lots of saves, build
your files as well as the model. The simulation at this point is for
confirmation your model is running and for error messages. A tiny error
in geometry will crash the file. There is no point doing anything but
the bare minimum until the geometry is correct. It will crash your
project with minimal error messages, maybe none, eQuest will just
freeze. Once the geometry is correct keep adding to the complexity one
step at a time, test and confirm, fix errors, save, then the next step.
I know it sounds plodding, it is. Methodical is a much classier word.
Efficient is more to the point. I contract so when everything blows up
I don't get paid. I eat the hours for my mistakes. In the end it is
all similar, whether it is the boss pounding on the door or the client,
the deadline has arrived, eQuest is not cooperating and you are ready to
toss the computer out the window, your name is mud. Plodding is smart.
Sorry for the digression Aaron, the Voodoo thread was interesting
and I didn't get to add my 2 cents worth. I was in a swamp with
alligators at the time. On the other hand I did learn a lesson about
reinitialization. You learn by doing and making mistakes.
Bruce
On 14/06/2010 06:43 PM, Dahlstrom, Aaron wrote:
Bruce -
The error shows up when I attempt to "finish" the DD wizard.
When I look through the PD2 file and the INP file in Notepad, neither
have any explicit errors in them.
The PD2 file does have -
1) RoofZoneErrorCode = 4
2) TOUPeriodErrSeas1 = " "
I can get into the wizard just fine, and all the data appears correct.
The problem is that when I "finish" the program crashes.
I just experimented with removing the TOU electric rate, and again, when
I hit "finish" it crashes eQUEST with the error noted below.
Thanks for trying!
Any other suggestions?
Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414,
Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF:
215-735-7290
e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com | in posse web: www.in-posse.com
<http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.akfgroup.com
<http://www.akfgroup.com/>
From: Bruce Easterbrook [mailto:bruce5 at bellnet.ca]
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 5:21 PM
To: Dahlstrom, Aaron
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] dd wizard - invalid argument
It depends where you are in the process. If you are getting a detailed
sim report it should open to the errors part of the report. If you
aren't that far open the project BDL or INP files with notepad. They
will list warnings and errors as they are processed. The error will be
at the end, there may be contributing errors before. All it really does
is tell you where it kicked out, but it does provide clues. When you
run your simulation make sure the boxes are checked so it will run
through errors and warnings. You get better hints this way.
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.
Abode Engineering
On 14/06/2010 04:56 PM, Dahlstrom, Aaron wrote:
Folks:
I have gotten the following error several times on the same project.
I have rebuilt the file from scratch already once, and I'm wondering if
there is another way to fix this error.
Any idea if there are reports or INIs that I can view / modify to find
out where exactly this "invalid argument" is located?
Thanks!
Aaron Dahlstrom , PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414,
Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF:
215-735-7290
e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com | in posse web: www.in-posse.com
<http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.akfgroup.com
<http://www.akfgroup.com/>
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