[Equest-users] Zoning Issue
Nick Caton
ncaton at smithboucher.com
Wed Nov 10 11:31:55 PST 2010
Someone asked me a pointed question and I'd had to misguide anyone.
Added an extra line to my response below to clarify my position.
I also remembered that you won't be able to actually view that
particular "mini-guide" in the archives I referenced as it was all
pictorial - sorry! I've re-attached the guide pictures and copied the
discussion that prompted it below for your reference.
~Nick
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick
Caton
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:25 AM
To: Brian Fountain; RJTHEACMAN at aol.com;
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Zoning Issue
In full support of Brian's response, I'd add one extra tidbit:
Post-wizards, I would generally take the "delete the wall" approach 9
times out of 10 without a second thought. In the event you do feel the
mass of the common wall has a significant thermal lag effect you don't
want to eliminate in your model, I'd advise still just deleting the wall
and bumping up the value for the furniture mass (located under the
contents tab for the space in question).
Creating an interior wall to match a wizard-generated exterior (which
I've written a mini guide on, btw - see attached pictures and discussion
copied below) is something I'd generally only advocate if model
aesthetics are critical (the 3D view). The exception is where you are
talking about being adjacent to a space of significantly different
conditioning - in that case creating an interior wall and tying the
spaces together would be a very sensible thing to pursue from a modeled
accuracy perspective. Deleting the wall surface entirely is a quick
solution, but has the side effect of giving you superman-like xray
vision powers when in the 3D view... this has raised eyebrows in my
experience and I have had to explain the modeled behavior is not what it
looks like.
Personally, I reserve and maintain the right to make ugly models
whenever it saves me time and doesn't hinder accuracy, but to each
his/her own ;).
~Nick
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Brian
Fountain
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:44 AM
To: RJTHEACMAN at aol.com; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Zoning Issue
You will have to define the common wall as an "adiabatic" interior
partition -- no heat transfer and no solar load. In the wizard you can
do this by clicking on the wall (in Shell screen 2 of the DD wizard) and
then selecting adiabatic. In detailed mode you can also delete a
exterior wall and then create an interior partition of type adiabatic.
You could also simply delete the common wall -- this also has no solar
and no conduction load. The only thing this does is decreases the
room's thermal mass slightly (not of significance likely).
There is no way to create and interior partition and to force the
temperature of the adjacent space -- you would have to create the "next
to" zone if you really want to model heat transfer between new and
existing. Unless the occupancies are significantly different, the
impact of conduction across that wall is likely negligible.
Good luck.
BF
On 11/10/2010 10:36 AM, RJTHEACMAN at aol.com wrote:
I am modeling an addition to an existing building. The new addition has
three perimeter exposures and the fourth exposure is up against the
existing building, which is a conditioned space.
How do I tell equest that one of my exposures is not a perimeter wall
but it is basically a partition with a conditioned space adjacent to it?
Thanks
Richard J. Dominick, P.E.
TEC Engineers LLC.
The Energy Consultant
304 Main Avenue, Suite 426
Norwalk, CT. 06851
Phone: 203-722-5206
Fax: 203-849-0781
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From: Nick Caton
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:02 AM
To: Nick Caton; Sami, Vikram; Reba Schaber;
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior wall
Alright folks...
This is one of a number of things I really wish someone walked me
through when I was new to this - so pay attention if you're learning =)!
Attached images are a "visual guide" walking you through changing an
external surface into an adiabatic internal surface in detailed mode.
It took me 10 minutes to pull these together, but 99% of that was spent
creating/naming the images. The process is simple.
Also, If anyone can answer this: Is there any plan or consideration to
have images and other attachments like this included in the mailing list
archives for future reference? I think it's a bummer that so many miss
out on really important email attachments (excel tools, example files,
studies, and other time savers). If it were possible, I and others
might be more inclined to generate this sort of "mini-guide" visual
response knowing others could find and reference such information in the
future.
~Nick
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nick
Caton
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 9:07 AM
To: Sami, Vikram; Reba Schaber; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior wall
As further clarification,
If you delete any wall/ceiling/roof, you (1) remove both a source of
heat storage (thermal mass) while also (2) removing any heat transfer
across that surface. As a caution: Losing the first effect can be a
lot more significant that you might assume, depending on what you're
looking into.
If you instead change any interior surface type to "adiabatic" (in the
same wizard/detailed places you might select "air" or "internal"), you
will remove heat transfer while retaining the thermal mass of the
construction. This may be the best route when trying to study a
perimeter classroom in isolation, for example.
Quirky thing is, you can't change an exterior surface type
(roof/floor/wall) to adiabatic, so as Vikram is saying you have to first
create an interior surface, copying across the geometrical properties
(polygon, vertices, azimuth...), then delete the exterior surface. Make
sure to define and assign an interior surface construction (layers) if
the Wizards haven't already set this up for you.
~Nick
NICK CATON, E.I.T.
PROJECT ENGINEER
25501 west valley parkway
olathe ks 66061
direct 913 344.0036
fax 913 345.0617
Check out our new web-site @ www.smithboucher.com
-----Original Message-----
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Sami,
Vikram
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:20 PM
To: Reba Schaber; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior wall
Reba,
If you've gone through the wizard your interior and exterior walls
should be in tehir correct places.
Interioir walls should separate two spaces, and will define heat
transfer between those two spaces. You normally have to define which
space is on the other side.
Exterior walls define heat transfer between the space and the outside.
If you are in detailed mode, you can delete one and create the other as
a child component to the space. When you say large air space - is that
the air cavity in the wall? I'm not sure what resistance eQUEST
attributes to the larger air gaps, but in reality air cavities over a
certain size (I think 1 inch is probably the upper threshold) increase
their convective heat transfer and the cavity resistance should go down
(not up).
If your just looking to make it adiabatic, I think you should be fine
with just deleting the wall. You will lose the thermal mass of the wall
material though.
I would model it as an interior wall - especially if there is a space on
the other side.
________________________________
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Reba Schaber
[Rschaber at PHMECH.COM]
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:43 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior wall
I'm running a simulation on just a portion of a building. eQuest sees
all walls of the polygon as exterior walls. In reality some walls are
interior and will not have heat transfer. Is there any way to make
eQuest see those walls as interior walls? I've thought of defining
those walls with super insulation and a large air space so heat transfer
is negligible. Anyone tried that?
Reba Schaber Mechanical Engineer, P.E.
LEED Accredited Professional
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