[Equest-users] External Adiabatic
Arpan Bakshi
arpanbakshi at gmail.com
Wed Apr 27 07:57:35 PDT 2011
Looks like what eQUEST is doing is turning exterior walls into adiabatic
interior walls. Because even in detailed mode, only interior walls have this
option. This is what the wizard mode exterior wall defined as adiabatic
looks like behind the curtain
"EL1 East Wall (G.E2.I6)" = INTERIOR-WALL
CONSTRUCTION = "EL1 EWall Construction"
INT-WALL-TYPE = ADIABATIC
X = 0
Y = 0
Z = 0
HEIGHT = 9
WIDTH = 158.1
AZIMUTH = 180
..
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>wrote:
> Arpan, Mark and others:
>
>
>
> In detailed mode, there are many approaches that vary from fast to quick,
> with slightly different end-results. Deepika’s suggestion of forcing low
> u-value is very clever and something I’ll add to my toolbox!
>
>
>
> The absolute simplest/easiest way to eliminate heat transfer across a
> surface in detailed mode is to delete it. Just let there be a “hole” in
> your 3D building =)! The only thing you’re losing with that approach
> (besides aesthetics?) is that an adiabatic surface has mass which will
> retain heat, whereas a deleted surface has no mass… here’s a quick summary
> of the various surface/partition types for reference, copied from an earlier
> post:
>
>
>
> - Deleted/No surface - No heat transfer, no mass [Total
> disconnect]
>
> - Adiabatic – No heat transfer, Yes mass
>
> - Standard – Yes heat transfer, Yes mass (frame/mass partitions)
>
> - Air – Yes heat transfer, No mass
>
> - Internal – No heat transfer, Yes mass (another means of
> specifying thermal mass in a space – I haven’t used this myself)
>
>
>
> If you really want an adiabatic surface (with mass), then you can make an
> adiabatic surface from an external surface following the pictorial guide I
> wrote up a while back (attached). This will achieve the same thing the
> wizards do automatically, with additional flexibilities.
>
>
>
> You both may be on top of this, but it bears repeating every so often for
> everyone’s benefit: This and similar guides/discussions are currently
> available in the mailing list archives. Every user of eQuest should have
> the following bookmarked/favorite in their browser of choice!
>
>
>
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/
>
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Deepika
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 27, 2011 9:13 AM
> *To:* Arpan Bakshi
> *Cc:* equest-users
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] External Adiabatic
>
>
>
> I think the u value can be changed to 0.001 to male the wall with almost
> zero heat transfer when in detailed mode. I tried doing that n it worked.
>
>
> On Apr 27, 2011, at 7:06 AM, Arpan Bakshi <arpanbakshi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, the problem here is I am deep into detailed mode. Looks like we have
> to crack open the text edit again.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Arpan
>
>
> On Apr 27, 2011, at 9:55 AM, "Chris Swanson" <cswanson at rdfa.com> wrote:
>
> See below. Nick gives a good explanation when I posed the same question
> a couple weeks ago.
>
>
>
> Chris Swanson, EI
>
> Mechanical Design Engineer
>
> Roger D. Fields & Associates
>
> (614) 451-2248
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> “A suggestion for you both:
>
>
>
> Right click any side of a shell during DD wizards at the zone definition
> screen (after any custom footprint/zoning patterns) to make that wall
> section “entirely adiabatic.” This sidesteps making any extra
> shells/systems and avoids having to back any figures out later. Screengrab
> following illustrates where I’m talking about – results in the background.
>
>
>
> You can accomplish the same net effect in detailed mode in various ways,
> but I think this is probably the easiest/fastest approach if you know from
> the start you want to model only part of a building with exterior
> exposures.
>
>
>
> <image001.png>
>
>
>
> Best of luck!
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> <image002.jpg>
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.*
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Bruce
> Easterbrook
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:58 AM
> *To:* Chris Swanson
> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] How to model part of a building?
>
>
>
> You have the right idea. Depending on the building of course, but I try to
> lump the part you aren't concerned about onto one AHU, and default
> everything in that portion. You are only concerned about the intersecting
> wall and it's condition. Add your other AHU's and zoning for the portion
> you want to work on. With the one extra AHU is makes it relatively easy to
> back out its numbers from the building analysis and you are left with what
> you want.
> Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.
> Abode Engineering
>
> On 06/04/2011 10:15 AM, Chris Swanson wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
>
>
> I’m looking for recommendations of how to model just one section of a
> building in eQUEST. Three sides are exterior walls, while the fourth is
> connected to the rest of the building, and therefore next to a conditioned
> space. Would the best method be to just use two separate shells (1 – the
> building “wing” I’m analyzing, 2 – the rest of the building), although I’m
> only concerned with one of them? Is there a better way to do this? I’m
> hoping someone can point me in the right direction.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> *Chris Swanson, EI*
>
> Mechanical Design Engineer
>
> Roger D. Fields & Associates
>
> Columbus, Ohio 43220-2777
>
> E-mail: cswanson at rdfa.com”
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Arpan Bakshi
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 9:48 AM
> To: equest-users
> Subject: [Equest-users] External Adiabatic
>
>
>
> I can't find this thread I remember seeing about turning an exterior
> surface adiabatic where new construction meets existing building, ideas?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Arpan Bakshi, LEED AP BD+C
>
> YRG sustainability
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
>
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>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Nick Caton" <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> To: "Nick Caton" <ncaton at smithboucher.com>, "Sami, Vikram" <
> Vikram.Sami at perkinswill.com>, "Reba Schaber" <Rschaber at PHMECH.COM>, <
> equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:01:55 -0500
> Subject: RE: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior wall
>
> Alright folks…
>
>
>
> This is one of a number of things I really wish someone walked me through
> when I was new to this – so pay attention if you’re learning =)!
>
>
>
> Attached images are a “visual guide” walking you through changing an
> external surface into an adiabatic internal surface in detailed mode. It
> took me 10 minutes to pull these together, but 99% of that was spent
> creating/naming the images. The process is simple.
>
>
>
> Also, If *anyone* can answer this: Is there any plan or consideration to
> have images and other attachments like this included in the mailing list
> archives for future reference? I think it’s a bummer that so many miss out
> on really important email attachments (excel tools, example files, studies,
> and other time savers). If it were possible, I and others might be more
> inclined to generate this sort of “mini-guide” visual response knowing
> others could find and reference such information in the future.
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> *Check out our new web-site @ *www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *Nick Caton
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 22, 2010 9:07 AM
> *To:* Sami, Vikram; Reba Schaber; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior wall
>
>
>
> As further clarification,
>
>
>
> If you delete any wall/ceiling/roof, you (1) remove both a source of heat
> storage (thermal mass) while also (2) removing any heat transfer across that
> surface. As a caution: Losing the first effect can be a lot more
> significant that you might assume, depending on what you’re looking into.
>
>
>
> If you instead change any interior surface type to “adiabatic” (in the same
> wizard/detailed places you might select “air” or “internal”), you will
> remove heat transfer while retaining the thermal mass of the construction.
> This may be the best route when trying to study a perimeter classroom in
> isolation, for example.
>
>
>
> Quirky thing is, you can’t change an exterior surface type
> (roof/floor/wall) to adiabatic, so as Vikram is saying you have to first
> create an interior surface, copying across the geometrical properties
> (polygon, vertices, azimuth…), then delete the exterior surface. Make sure
> to define and assign an interior surface construction (layers) if the
> Wizards haven’t already set this up for you.
>
>
>
> ~Nick
>
>
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, E.I.T.***
>
> PROJECT ENGINEER
>
> 25501 west valley parkway
>
> olathe ks 66061
>
> direct 913 344.0036
>
> fax 913 345.0617
>
> *Check out our new web-site @ *www.smithboucher.com* *
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Sami, Vikram
> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:20 PM
> To: Reba Schaber; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior wall
>
>
>
> Reba,
>
>
>
> If you've gone through the wizard your interior and exterior walls should
> be in tehir correct places.
>
>
>
> Interioir walls should separate two spaces, and will define heat transfer
> between those two spaces. You normally have to define which space is on the
> other side.
>
>
>
> Exterior walls define heat transfer between the space and the outside.
>
>
>
> If you are in detailed mode, you can delete one and create the other as a
> child component to the space. When you say large air space - is that the air
> cavity in the wall? I'm not sure what resistance eQUEST attributes to the
> larger air gaps, but in reality air cavities over a certain size (I think 1
> inch is probably the upper threshold) increase their convective heat
> transfer and the cavity resistance should go down (not up).
>
>
>
> If your just looking to make it adiabatic, I think you should be fine with
> just deleting the wall. You will lose the thermal mass of the wall material
> though.
>
>
>
> I would model it as an interior wall - especially if there is a space on
> the other side.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Reba Schaber [
> Rschaber at PHMECH.COM]
>
> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:43 PM
>
> To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>
> Subject: [Equest-users] make exterior wall an interior wall
>
>
>
> I’m running a simulation on just a portion of a building. eQuest sees all
> walls of the polygon as exterior walls. In reality some walls are interior
> and will not have heat transfer. Is there any way to make eQuest see those
> walls as interior walls? I’ve thought of defining those walls with super
> insulation and a large air space so heat transfer is negligible. Anyone
> tried that?
>
>
>
>
>
> Reba Schaber Mechanical Engineer, P.E.
>
> LEED Accredited Professional
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
> solely for the addressee. If you are not the named addressee you should not
> disseminate, distribute, copy, or alter this email.
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
--
*
*
*
Arpan Bakshi LEED AP BD+C
*
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