[Equest-users] Equest-users Digest, Vol 41, Issue 16

anura perera perera.anura25 at gmail.com
Wed Aug 24 17:25:10 PDT 2011


*Dear Deepika,*


**

*In evaporative cooling where there is no mechanical cooling cycle, the heat
gains of the building are absorbed by the evaporatively cooled outside air
(with a relatively high RH than outside air). Unlike in mechanical cooling
where supply air temperature or flow rate is adjusted to suit the building
heat gains (i.e. actual cooling loads), evap coolers have their supply air
conditions getting adjusted based on condition of the supply air and the
saturation efficiency of the cooler which strongly depends on the supply air
flow rate. These systems use large air exchange rates and positive pressure
systems which which usually do not get controlled in relations to the
building heat gains as in mechanically cooled systems. Thus the impact of
the window change will not be present in the "space cooling energy". But any
relevant change could be observed in internal space temp & RH values
together with change in unmet cooling hours.*


**

*This is my understanding on EC systems.
*


**

*Anura*

*
*

*From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *deepika khowal
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:36 PM
*To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest



Hello all

I am modeling a building in Bridgeport, CA which has evaporative coolers.

I dont see any benefits if I replace existing clear glass with low-e in
cooling energy consumption.

Did anyone model evaporative coolers/swamp coolers before?

I want to know whether there is a way to show cooling benefit with such HVAC
system.

Thanks

Regards
Deepika

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 2:03 AM, <equest-users-request at lists.onebuilding.org
> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: evaporative coolers in equest (Nick Caton)
>   2. Re: evaporative coolers in equest (Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.)
>   3. Re: evaporative coolers in equest (deepika khowal)
>   4. Re: evaporative coolers in equest (Joe Huang)
>   5. Re: evaporative coolers in equest (Nick Caton)
>   6. Re: evaporative coolers in equest (deepika khowal)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Nick Caton" <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> To: "deepika khowal" <deepika.khowal at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 16:22:29 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest
>
> I hope we’re at a simple vocabulary disconnect here...****
>
> ** **
>
> **·         **Upgrading the windows will reduce your solar cooling loads.*
> ***
>
> **·         **Reducing your solar cooling loads will reduce the amount of
> heat to be removed from the building.****
>
> **·         **Reducing the amount of heat to remove will reduce the
> required hours of operation of your HVAC system (in this case, evaporative
> coolers) to maintain comfort.****
>
> **·         **Reducing the runtime of your evaporative coolers will result
> in reduced energy consumption.  Fan energies primarily, in the case of
> evaporative coolers.****
>
> **·         **In the event the existing system is not of sufficient
> capacity to begin with, you may also/instead observe a reduction in unmet
> cooling hours.****
>
> ** **
>
> The reduction of solar loads with a glazing upgrade could be *negligible*for a variety of possible reasons, but it’s unlikely the net effect is
> absolutely zero.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> ~Nick****
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.***
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>
> ** **
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>
> olathe, ks 66061****
>
> direct 913.344.0036****
>
> fax 913.345.0617****
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* deepika khowal [mailto:deepika.khowal at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 3:11 PM
> *To:* Nick Caton
> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> This is an existing building with evaporative coolers.****
>
> the proposed design  to upgrade the windows and check the relative
> benefits.****
>
> I dont see much benefits in energy because  evaporative coolers are sized
> based on Cfm and not btus, the savings will be in cfms.****
>
> correct me if I am wrong.****
>
> is there any other way I can show the benefit in the proposed case if not
> HVAC benefits?****
>
> Thanks****
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> wrote:****
>
> Hi Deepika,****
>
>  ****
>
> I’m not certain any increase/decrease in cooling loads (such as solar loads
> affected by changing glazing) should have any effect on the reported “space
> cooling energy” when you’re using evaporative coolers.  Direct evaporative
> (swamp) coolers of the simplest sort have only fan and pump energies to
> consider -  no refrigerant!  I would advise looking up the Detailed
> Simulation Reports Summary page 158/160 to review end use categories and
> what they cover. ****
>
>  ****
>
> I am unfamiliar with Bridgeport’s climate, but as a general rule if I
> observed a significant amount of glazing in a space served by a direct
> evaporative cooler… I’d be extra cautious to ensure the HVAC designer is
> carefully considering condensation and potential for other humidity-driven
> issues along the way.  I’m most used to seeing them applied to
> well-ventilated and/or open-air spaces such as garages and gyms/hangars.**
> **
>
>  ****
>
> ~Nick****
>
>  ****
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]****
>
> * *****
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.*****
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>
>  ****
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>
> olathe, ks 66061****
>
> direct 913.344.0036****
>
> fax 913.345.0617****
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *deepika khowal
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:36 PM
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>
>  ****
>
> Hello all****
>
> I am modeling a building in Bridgeport, CA which has evaporative coolers.*
> ***
>
> I dont see any benefits if I replace existing clear glass with low-e in
> cooling energy consumption.****
>
> Did anyone model evaporative coolers/swamp coolers before?****
>
> I want to know whether there is a way to show cooling benefit with such
> HVAC system.****
>
> Thanks****
>
> Regards****
>
> Deepika****
>
> ** **
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr." <poleary1969 at gmail.com>
> To: Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:47:51 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest
> **
> i would agree with nick on this except for part #3.  if you're using ashrae
> 62, or the 2000/2003/2006 imc (at least the way it is enforced in southern
> arizona), the evaporative cooler fan is required to run while the building
> is occupied so despite glazing upgrades you shouldn't be seeing any savings
> from the hvac system during occupied hours.  you would probably see some
> during night setback if the building there's some thermostat setting that
> will operate the evap coolers to remove air (and the associated heat build
> up) but i would not think it to be that significant of a savings compared to
> heat gain during occupied hours.
>
> i would think, as nick mentions in point 5, that the ummet cooling hours
> might be a better measure of what you are looking for.  improved glazing
> should help reduce the rate of heat gain so the evap coolers should be able
> to meet whatever setpoint you are using with less unmet cooling hours.  in
> reality i would think it would be more obvious by an occupant working
> proximity to the windows - if they're currently affected by the solar heat
> gain.  i don't know your climate but in southern arizona you don't really
> want to be seated right next to a window with a direct sun exposure and
> insufficient airflow (evap) or mechanical cooling and poor windows.
>
> On 8/16/11 2:22 PM, Nick Caton wrote:
>
>  I hope we’re at a simple vocabulary disconnect here...****
>
> ** **
>
> ·         Upgrading the windows will reduce your solar cooling loads.****
>
> ·         Reducing your solar cooling loads will reduce the amount of heat
> to be removed from the building.****
>
> ·         Reducing the amount of heat to remove will reduce the required
> hours of operation of your HVAC system (in this case, evaporative coolers)
> to maintain comfort.****
>
> ·         Reducing the runtime of your evaporative coolers will result in
> reduced energy consumption.  Fan energies primarily, in the case of
> evaporative coolers.****
>
> ·         In the event the existing system is not of sufficient capacity
> to begin with, you may also/instead observe a reduction in unmet cooling
> hours.****
>
> ** **
>
> The reduction of solar loads with a glazing upgrade could be *negligible*for a variety of possible reasons, but it’s unlikely the net effect is
> absolutely zero.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> ~Nick****
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.***
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>
> ** **
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>
> olathe, ks 66061****
>
> direct 913.344.0036****
>
> fax 913.345.0617****
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* deepika khowal [mailto:deepika.khowal at gmail.com<deepika.khowal at gmail.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 3:11 PM
> *To:* Nick Caton
> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> This is an existing building with evaporative coolers.****
>
> the proposed design  to upgrade the windows and check the relative
> benefits.****
>
> I dont see much benefits in energy because  evaporative coolers are sized
> based on Cfm and not btus, the savings will be in cfms.****
>
> correct me if I am wrong.****
>
> is there any other way I can show the benefit in the proposed case if not
> HVAC benefits?****
>
> Thanks****
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> wrote:****
>
> Hi Deepika,****
>
>  ****
>
> I’m not certain any increase/decrease in cooling loads (such as solar loads
> affected by changing glazing) should have any effect on the reported “space
> cooling energy” when you’re using evaporative coolers.  Direct evaporative
> (swamp) coolers of the simplest sort have only fan and pump energies to
> consider -  no refrigerant!  I would advise looking up the Detailed
> Simulation Reports Summary page 158/160 to review end use categories and
> what they cover. ****
>
>  ****
>
> I am unfamiliar with Bridgeport’s climate, but as a general rule if I
> observed a significant amount of glazing in a space served by a direct
> evaporative cooler… I’d be extra cautious to ensure the HVAC designer is
> carefully considering condensation and potential for other humidity-driven
> issues along the way.  I’m most used to seeing them applied to
> well-ventilated and/or open-air spaces such as garages and gyms/hangars.**
> **
>
>  ****
>
> ~Nick****
>
>  ****
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]****
>
> * *****
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.*****
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>
>  ****
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>
> olathe, ks 66061****
>
> direct 913.344.0036****
>
> fax 913.345.0617****
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *deepika khowal
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:36 PM
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>
>  ****
>
> Hello all****
>
> I am modeling a building in Bridgeport, CA which has evaporative coolers.*
> ***
>
> I dont see any benefits if I replace existing clear glass with low-e in
> cooling energy consumption.****
>
> Did anyone model evaporative coolers/swamp coolers before?****
>
> I want to know whether there is a way to show cooling benefit with such
> HVAC system.****
>
> Thanks****
>
> Regards****
>
> Deepika****
>
> ** **
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Equest-users mailing listhttp://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: deepika khowal <deepika.khowal at gmail.com>
> To: "Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr." <poleary1969 at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:54:12 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest
> the building has windows only on south facade.
> I thk changing the glass type will have impact on unmet hrs.
> however, I agree that since its diff to have a thermostat control for
> evaporative coolers during day, the savings are hard to quantify.
> Thanks for help.
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr. <
> poleary1969 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> **
>> i would agree with nick on this except for part #3.  if you're using
>> ashrae 62, or the 2000/2003/2006 imc (at least the way it is enforced in
>> southern arizona), the evaporative cooler fan is required to run while the
>> building is occupied so despite glazing upgrades you shouldn't be seeing any
>> savings from the hvac system during occupied hours.  you would probably see
>> some during night setback if the building there's some thermostat setting
>> that will operate the evap coolers to remove air (and the associated heat
>> build up) but i would not think it to be that significant of a savings
>> compared to heat gain during occupied hours.
>>
>> i would think, as nick mentions in point 5, that the ummet cooling hours
>> might be a better measure of what you are looking for.  improved glazing
>> should help reduce the rate of heat gain so the evap coolers should be able
>> to meet whatever setpoint you are using with less unmet cooling hours.  in
>> reality i would think it would be more obvious by an occupant working
>> proximity to the windows - if they're currently affected by the solar heat
>> gain.  i don't know your climate but in southern arizona you don't really
>> want to be seated right next to a window with a direct sun exposure and
>> insufficient airflow (evap) or mechanical cooling and poor windows.
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/11 2:22 PM, Nick Caton wrote:
>>
>>  I hope we’re at a simple vocabulary disconnect here...****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ·         Upgrading the windows will reduce your solar cooling loads.****
>>
>> ·         Reducing your solar cooling loads will reduce the amount of
>> heat to be removed from the building.****
>>
>> ·         Reducing the amount of heat to remove will reduce the required
>> hours of operation of your HVAC system (in this case, evaporative coolers)
>> to maintain comfort.****
>>
>> ·         Reducing the runtime of your evaporative coolers will result in
>> reduced energy consumption.  Fan energies primarily, in the case of
>> evaporative coolers.****
>>
>> ·         In the event the existing system is not of sufficient capacity
>> to begin with, you may also/instead observe a reduction in unmet cooling
>> hours.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> The reduction of solar loads with a glazing upgrade could be *negligible*for a variety of possible reasons, but it’s unlikely the net effect is
>> absolutely zero.  ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ~Nick****
>>
>> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *NICK CATON, P.E.***
>>
>> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>>
>> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>>
>> olathe, ks 66061****
>>
>> direct 913.344.0036****
>>
>> fax 913.345.0617****
>>
>> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* deepika khowal [mailto:deepika.khowal at gmail.com<deepika.khowal at gmail.com>]
>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 3:11 PM
>> *To:* Nick Caton
>> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> This is an existing building with evaporative coolers.****
>>
>> the proposed design  to upgrade the windows and check the relative
>> benefits.****
>>
>> I dont see much benefits in energy because  evaporative coolers are sized
>> based on Cfm and not btus, the savings will be in cfms.****
>>
>> correct me if I am wrong.****
>>
>> is there any other way I can show the benefit in the proposed case if not
>> HVAC benefits?****
>>
>> Thanks****
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>> Hi Deepika,****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> I’m not certain any increase/decrease in cooling loads (such as solar
>> loads affected by changing glazing) should have any effect on the reported
>> “space cooling energy” when you’re using evaporative coolers.  Direct
>> evaporative (swamp) coolers of the simplest sort have only fan and pump
>> energies to consider -  no refrigerant!  I would advise looking up the
>> Detailed Simulation Reports Summary page 158/160 to review end use
>> categories and what they cover. ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> I am unfamiliar with Bridgeport’s climate, but as a general rule if I
>> observed a significant amount of glazing in a space served by a direct
>> evaporative cooler… I’d be extra cautious to ensure the HVAC designer is
>> carefully considering condensation and potential for other humidity-driven
>> issues along the way.  I’m most used to seeing them applied to
>> well-ventilated and/or open-air spaces such as garages and gyms/hangars.*
>> ***
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> ~Nick****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]****
>>
>> * *****
>>
>> *NICK CATON, P.E.*****
>>
>> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>>
>> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>>
>> olathe, ks 66061****
>>
>> direct 913.344.0036****
>>
>> fax 913.345.0617****
>>
>> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *deepika khowal
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:36 PM
>> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Hello all****
>>
>> I am modeling a building in Bridgeport, CA which has evaporative coolers.
>> ****
>>
>> I dont see any benefits if I replace existing clear glass with low-e in
>> cooling energy consumption.****
>>
>> Did anyone model evaporative coolers/swamp coolers before?****
>>
>> I want to know whether there is a way to show cooling benefit with such
>> HVAC system.****
>>
>> Thanks****
>>
>> Regards****
>>
>> Deepika****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Equest-users mailing list
>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Joe Huang <yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com>
> To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:13:04 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest
> **
> This is the wrong way to look at evap cooling performance.  In fact, the
> whole logic of sizing using design conditions falls apart when it comes to
> evap coolers.  Evaporative cooling works by taking advantage of the wet-bulb
> depression to trade off latent for sensible heat.
> When the wet-bulb depression (DBT - WBT) is low or when the WBT is high,
> evap cooling
> will provide little cooling.  A better way to size evap cooling is to
> either minimize the unmet
> cooling hours, or if there is an AC backup, maximize the energy reductions.
>
> If you're working with a fixed evap cooling size, then you should look at
> the number of unmet cooling hours to see the benefits of a window upgrade,
> as well as the reduction (if any) of  electricity use.
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Huang
> White Box Technologies, Inc.
> 346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 108D
> Moraga CA 94556yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.comwww.whiteboxtechnologies.com
> (o) (925)388-0265
> (c) (510)928-2683
> "building energy simulations at your fingertips"
>
>
> On 8/16/2011 1:11 PM, deepika khowal wrote:
>
>
> This is an existing building with evaporative coolers.
> the proposed design  to upgrade the windows and check the relative
> benefits.
> I dont see much benefits in energy because  evaporative coolers are sized
> based on Cfm and not btus, the savings will be in cfms.
> correct me if I am wrong.
> is there any other way I can show the benefit in the proposed case if not
> HVAC benefits?
> Thanks
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>wrote:
>
>>  Hi Deepika,
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m not certain any increase/decrease in cooling loads (such as solar
>> loads affected by changing glazing) should have any effect on the reported
>> “space cooling energy” when you’re using evaporative coolers.  Direct
>> evaporative (swamp) coolers of the simplest sort have only fan and pump
>> energies to consider -  no refrigerant!  I would advise looking up the
>> Detailed Simulation Reports Summary page 158/160 to review end use
>> categories and what they cover.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am unfamiliar with Bridgeport’s climate, but as a general rule if I
>> observed a significant amount of glazing in a space served by a direct
>> evaporative cooler… I’d be extra cautious to ensure the HVAC designer is
>> carefully considering condensation and potential for other humidity-driven
>> issues along the way.  I’m most used to seeing them applied to
>> well-ventilated and/or open-air spaces such as garages and gyms/hangars.
>>
>>
>>
>> ~Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *NICK CATON, P.E.***
>>
>> SENIOR ENGINEER
>>
>>
>>
>> Smith & Boucher Engineers
>>
>> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200
>>
>> olathe, ks 66061
>>
>> direct 913.344.0036
>>
>> fax 913.345.0617
>>
>> www.smithboucher.com* *
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *deepika khowal
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:36 PM
>> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all
>>
>> I am modeling a building in Bridgeport, CA which has evaporative coolers.
>>
>> I dont see any benefits if I replace existing clear glass with low-e in
>> cooling energy consumption.
>>
>> Did anyone model evaporative coolers/swamp coolers before?
>>
>> I want to know whether there is a way to show cooling benefit with such
>> HVAC system.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Deepika
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Equest-users mailing listhttp://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Nick Caton" <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> To: "Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr." <poleary1969 at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:56:18 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest
>
> Patrick, thanks for the heads up!****
>
> ** **
>
> My experience applying evap. coolers has been on a limited basis explicitly
> for space comfort, operated staged & cycled off via thermostat, so my
> brainstorming for Deepika was tailored to my past experience.  In those
> cases (auto garages), a mechanical ventilation system was provided as an
> entirely separate system, so the 62.1/IMC requirements for ventilation
> during occupancy were addressed elsewhere.****
>
> ** **
>
> If one is in fact using a swamp cooler functionally to supply required
> ventilation air, then I would agree it makes complete sense to operate
> continuously during occupied hours.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> I recall evap. coolers being a breath of fresh air (har har) to design
> around as they do make you rethink how you use your psych charts =).  I’ll
> defer any specific swamp cooler application queries to the Arizona engineer
> below me though – we don’t use them quite so often locally, outside of the
> desert ;).****
>
> ** **
>
> ~Nick****
>
> ** **
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>
> * *
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.***
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>
> ** **
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>
> olathe, ks 66061****
>
> direct 913.344.0036****
>
> fax 913.345.0617****
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr. [mailto:poleary1969 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 5:48 PM
> *To:* Nick Caton
> *Cc:* deepika khowal; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>
> ** **
>
> i would agree with nick on this except for part #3.  if you're using ashrae
> 62, or the 2000/2003/2006 imc (at least the way it is enforced in southern
> arizona), the evaporative cooler fan is required to run while the building
> is occupied so despite glazing upgrades you shouldn't be seeing any savings
> from the hvac system during occupied hours.  you would probably see some
> during night setback if the building there's some thermostat setting that
> will operate the evap coolers to remove air (and the associated heat build
> up) but i would not think it to be that significant of a savings compared to
> heat gain during occupied hours.
>
> i would think, as nick mentions in point 5, that the ummet cooling hours
> might be a better measure of what you are looking for.  improved glazing
> should help reduce the rate of heat gain so the evap coolers should be able
> to meet whatever setpoint you are using with less unmet cooling hours.  in
> reality i would think it would be more obvious by an occupant working
> proximity to the windows - if they're currently affected by the solar heat
> gain.  i don't know your climate but in southern arizona you don't really
> want to be seated right next to a window with a direct sun exposure and
> insufficient airflow (evap) or mechanical cooling and poor windows.
>
> On 8/16/11 2:22 PM, Nick Caton wrote: ****
>
> I hope we’re at a simple vocabulary disconnect here...****
>
>  ****
>
> Upgrading the windows will reduce your solar cooling loads.****
>
> Reducing your solar cooling loads will reduce the amount of heat to be
> removed from the building.****
>
> Reducing the amount of heat to remove will reduce the required hours of
> operation of your HVAC system (in this case, evaporative coolers) to
> maintain comfort.****
>
> Reducing the runtime of your evaporative coolers will result in reduced
> energy consumption.  Fan energies primarily, in the case of evaporative
> coolers.****
>
> In the event the existing system is not of sufficient capacity to begin
> with, you may also/instead observe a reduction in unmet cooling hours.****
>
>  ****
>
> The reduction of solar loads with a glazing upgrade could be *negligible*for a variety of possible reasons, but it’s unlikely the net effect is
> absolutely zero.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> ~Nick****
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]****
>
> * *****
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.*****
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>
>  ****
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>
> olathe, ks 66061****
>
> direct 913.344.0036****
>
> fax 913.345.0617****
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* deepika khowal [mailto:deepika.khowal at gmail.com<deepika.khowal at gmail.com>]
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 3:11 PM
> *To:* Nick Caton
> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> This is an existing building with evaporative coolers.****
>
> the proposed design  to upgrade the windows and check the relative
> benefits.****
>
> I dont see much benefits in energy because  evaporative coolers are sized
> based on Cfm and not btus, the savings will be in cfms.****
>
> correct me if I am wrong.****
>
> is there any other way I can show the benefit in the proposed case if not
> HVAC benefits?****
>
> Thanks****
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> wrote:****
>
> Hi Deepika,****
>
>  ****
>
> I’m not certain any increase/decrease in cooling loads (such as solar loads
> affected by changing glazing) should have any effect on the reported “space
> cooling energy” when you’re using evaporative coolers.  Direct evaporative
> (swamp) coolers of the simplest sort have only fan and pump energies to
> consider -  no refrigerant!  I would advise looking up the Detailed
> Simulation Reports Summary page 158/160 to review end use categories and
> what they cover. ****
>
>  ****
>
> I am unfamiliar with Bridgeport’s climate, but as a general rule if I
> observed a significant amount of glazing in a space served by a direct
> evaporative cooler… I’d be extra cautious to ensure the HVAC designer is
> carefully considering condensation and potential for other humidity-driven
> issues along the way.  I’m most used to seeing them applied to
> well-ventilated and/or open-air spaces such as garages and gyms/hangars.**
> **
>
>  ****
>
> ~Nick****
>
>  ****
>
> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]****
>
> * *****
>
> *NICK CATON, P.E.*****
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>
>  ****
>
> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>
> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>
> olathe, ks 66061****
>
> direct 913.344.0036****
>
> fax 913.345.0617****
>
> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *deepika khowal
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:36 PM
> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>
>  ****
>
> Hello all****
>
> I am modeling a building in Bridgeport, CA which has evaporative coolers.*
> ***
>
> I dont see any benefits if I replace existing clear glass with low-e in
> cooling energy consumption.****
>
> Did anyone model evaporative coolers/swamp coolers before?****
>
> I want to know whether there is a way to show cooling benefit with such
> HVAC system.****
>
> Thanks****
>
> Regards****
>
> Deepika****
>
>  ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________****
>
> Equest-users mailing list****
>
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org****
>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG****
>
>   ****
>
> ** **
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: deepika khowal <deepika.khowal at gmail.com>
> To: Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 10:00:03 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest
> Thanks Patrick
> I read the following link which talks abt sizing evaporative coolers
> http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/home/heating_cooling/evaporative.html
>
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>wrote:
>
>> Patrick, thanks for the heads up!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> My experience applying evap. coolers has been on a limited basis
>> explicitly for space comfort, operated staged & cycled off via thermostat,
>> so my brainstorming for Deepika was tailored to my past experience.  In
>> those cases (auto garages), a mechanical ventilation system was provided as
>> an entirely separate system, so the 62.1/IMC requirements for ventilation
>> during occupancy were addressed elsewhere.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> If one is in fact using a swamp cooler functionally to supply required
>> ventilation air, then I would agree it makes complete sense to operate
>> continuously during occupied hours.  ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I recall evap. coolers being a breath of fresh air (har har) to design
>> around as they do make you rethink how you use your psych charts =).  I’ll
>> defer any specific swamp cooler application queries to the Arizona engineer
>> below me though – we don’t use them quite so often locally, outside of the
>> desert ;).****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ~Nick****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]**
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *NICK CATON, P.E.***
>>
>> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>>
>> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>>
>> olathe, ks 66061****
>>
>> direct 913.344.0036****
>>
>> fax 913.345.0617****
>>
>> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr. [mailto:poleary1969 at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 5:48 PM
>> *To:* Nick Caton
>> *Cc:* deepika khowal; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> i would agree with nick on this except for part #3.  if you're using
>> ashrae 62, or the 2000/2003/2006 imc (at least the way it is enforced in
>> southern arizona), the evaporative cooler fan is required to run while the
>> building is occupied so despite glazing upgrades you shouldn't be seeing any
>> savings from the hvac system during occupied hours.  you would probably see
>> some during night setback if the building there's some thermostat setting
>> that will operate the evap coolers to remove air (and the associated heat
>> build up) but i would not think it to be that significant of a savings
>> compared to heat gain during occupied hours.
>>
>> i would think, as nick mentions in point 5, that the ummet cooling hours
>> might be a better measure of what you are looking for.  improved glazing
>> should help reduce the rate of heat gain so the evap coolers should be able
>> to meet whatever setpoint you are using with less unmet cooling hours.  in
>> reality i would think it would be more obvious by an occupant working
>> proximity to the windows - if they're currently affected by the solar heat
>> gain.  i don't know your climate but in southern arizona you don't really
>> want to be seated right next to a window with a direct sun exposure and
>> insufficient airflow (evap) or mechanical cooling and poor windows.
>>
>> On 8/16/11 2:22 PM, Nick Caton wrote: ****
>>
>> I hope we’re at a simple vocabulary disconnect here...****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Upgrading the windows will reduce your solar cooling loads.****
>>
>> Reducing your solar cooling loads will reduce the amount of heat to be
>> removed from the building.****
>>
>> Reducing the amount of heat to remove will reduce the required hours of
>> operation of your HVAC system (in this case, evaporative coolers) to
>> maintain comfort.****
>>
>> Reducing the runtime of your evaporative coolers will result in reduced
>> energy consumption.  Fan energies primarily, in the case of evaporative
>> coolers.****
>>
>> In the event the existing system is not of sufficient capacity to begin
>> with, you may also/instead observe a reduction in unmet cooling hours.***
>> *
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> The reduction of solar loads with a glazing upgrade could be *negligible*for a variety of possible reasons, but it’s unlikely the net effect is
>> absolutely zero.  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> ~Nick****
>>
>> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]****
>>
>> * *****
>>
>> *NICK CATON, P.E.*****
>>
>> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>>
>> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>>
>> olathe, ks 66061****
>>
>> direct 913.344.0036****
>>
>> fax 913.345.0617****
>>
>> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> *From:* deepika khowal [mailto:deepika.khowal at gmail.com<deepika.khowal at gmail.com>]
>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 3:11 PM
>> *To:* Nick Caton
>> *Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> This is an existing building with evaporative coolers.****
>>
>> the proposed design  to upgrade the windows and check the relative
>> benefits.****
>>
>> I dont see much benefits in energy because  evaporative coolers are sized
>> based on Cfm and not btus, the savings will be in cfms.****
>>
>> correct me if I am wrong.****
>>
>> is there any other way I can show the benefit in the proposed case if not
>> HVAC benefits?****
>>
>> Thanks****
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>> Hi Deepika,****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> I’m not certain any increase/decrease in cooling loads (such as solar
>> loads affected by changing glazing) should have any effect on the reported
>> “space cooling energy” when you’re using evaporative coolers.  Direct
>> evaporative (swamp) coolers of the simplest sort have only fan and pump
>> energies to consider -  no refrigerant!  I would advise looking up the
>> Detailed Simulation Reports Summary page 158/160 to review end use
>> categories and what they cover. ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> I am unfamiliar with Bridgeport’s climate, but as a general rule if I
>> observed a significant amount of glazing in a space served by a direct
>> evaporative cooler… I’d be extra cautious to ensure the HVAC designer is
>> carefully considering condensation and potential for other humidity-driven
>> issues along the way.  I’m most used to seeing them applied to
>> well-ventilated and/or open-air spaces such as garages and gyms/hangars.*
>> ***
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> ~Nick****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> [image: cid:489575314 at 22072009-0ABB]****
>>
>> * *****
>>
>> *NICK CATON, P.E.*****
>>
>> SENIOR ENGINEER****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Smith & Boucher Engineers****
>>
>> 25501 west valley parkway, suite 200****
>>
>> olathe, ks 66061****
>>
>> direct 913.344.0036****
>>
>> fax 913.345.0617****
>>
>> www.smithboucher.com* *****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> *From:* equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
>> equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *deepika khowal
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:36 PM
>> *To:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>> *Subject:* [Equest-users] evaporative coolers in equest****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Hello all****
>>
>> I am modeling a building in Bridgeport, CA which has evaporative coolers.
>> ****
>>
>> I dont see any benefits if I replace existing clear glass with low-e in
>> cooling energy consumption.****
>>
>> Did anyone model evaporative coolers/swamp coolers before?****
>>
>> I want to know whether there is a way to show cooling benefit with such
>> HVAC system.****
>>
>> Thanks****
>>
>> Regards****
>>
>> Deepika****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> _______________________________________________****
>>
>> Equest-users mailing list****
>>
>> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org****
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG****
>>
>>   ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Equest-users mailing list
> Equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
> http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
>
>
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