[Equest-users] Cooking Equipment and Elevators/ Exhaust fans

[Nick Caton]

In those instances, I’d agree completely.  

 

That said, common design I’ve encountered (in the Midwest) occasionally involves conditioning elevator rooms with split DX systems (particularly when internal to the building footprint) and/or the decision to condition kitchen makeup air to one degree or another.  Heavy loads in IT rooms might also fall into this category of situations to consider…

 

So to be more specific:  If you are modeling conditioned spaces with significant (non-receptacle) process loads using above-standard HVAC efficiencies, you may find it beneficial to your performance rating to include such heat loads in those spaces (and explicitly model the associated HVAC), rather than using a submeter.

 

You also might find it too much work – and that’s not necessarily a wrong decision either ;).

 

~Nick

 

 

 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

Smith & Boucher Engineers

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 3:50 PM
To: Nick Caton; Bosch, Crina; Ravi Srinivasan
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Cooking Equipment and Elevators/ Exhaust fans

 

I would not be concerned that there is a disadvantage to sub-meters because using separate meters removes the internal loads from the HVAC system.

In the Northeast, the elevator equipment rooms are generally exhausted with maybe a unit heater for use during very cold weather.  Kitchens use makeup air and hood exhaust so the cooking equipment load does not trespass into the building.  Besides kitchens are seldom air-conditioned and the heating load is minimal.

Paul Diglio

 

 

________________________________

From: Nick Caton <ncaton at smithboucher.com>
To: "Bosch, Crina" <CBosch at karpinskieng.com>; Ravi Srinivasan <ravi.s.srinivasan at gmail.com>
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 4:37:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Cooking Equipment and Elevators/ Exhaust fans

The comment from the reviewer looks like a copy-paste job from one of my recent models (maybe we got the same guy/gal?).

 

Applying the equipment loads to the spaces as you’ve initially done is the intuitive thing to do, but for LEED you will run into issues coming up with annual consumption totals and maximum demand figures analogous to other energy enduses normally reported in the graphical outputs.

 

As others are suggesting, I have specified non-receptacle process loads as direct loads to one or more submeters.  In doing so you can get the analogous monthly consumption/demand quantities reported explicitly through report PS-B, separate from your default gas/electric meters.

 

The disadvantage here (to the potential detriment in your modeled performance) is that this method of reporting separately also removes the associated internal loads from your buildings, which means you gain less credit for any better-than-standard HVAC equipment handling those loads.  In the case of elevators, it may be negligible, but in the case of significant kitchen equipment loads, you might want to run it defined each ways [submetered for PS-B documentation but in the spaces for everything else] and explain the reason for the separate simulation in the provided PS-B reports is because the loads must be “isolated” from the building to meet such reporting demands, but that this in turn skews the loads incident on the systems for the actual model performance runs… 

 

…but don’t jump through any extra hoops if removing those internal loads doesn’t make a big difference ;)!  

 

In fact, Otto’s suggestion to politely advise the reviewer of the issue and simply provide screenshots of the corresponding schedules/inputs is interesting and something I might try myself, next time this particular comment comes up – that may be the path of least resistance.

 

~Nick

 



 

NICK CATON, E.I.T.

PROJECT ENGINEER

Smith & Boucher Engineers

25501 west valley parkway

olathe ks 66061

direct 913 344.0036

fax 913 345.0617

www.smithboucher.com 

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Bosch, Crina
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:37 PM
To: Ravi Srinivasan
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Cooking Equipment and Elevators/ Exhaust fans

 

Thank you all for your suggestions and thoughts. I will try the option with 2 meters and hopefully this will resolve my problem. 

 

Sincerely, 

Crina Bosch

 

________________________________

From: Ravi Srinivasan [mailto:ravi.s.srinivasan at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 3:35 PM
To: Demba Ndiaye; Bosch, Crina
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Cooking Equipment and Elevators/ Exhaust fans

 

Well said, Demba.

Crina, create two new meters (of "building" type) - one for Kitchen and another for Elevator. Input kW and associated schedules as direct loads.
Open the "utility" electricity meter (typically "EM1"). And, bring these two newly created meters within EM1. 

PS-B report should show energy use of Kitchen and Elevator separately. Ensure you have these two meters and associated loads input in baseline and proposed. 

Best Regards.



-- 
Ravi Srinivasan, PhD

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Demba Ndiaye <Demba.Ndiaye at setty.com> wrote:

Crina,

 

For the elevators, you can create a separate meter…

 

_______________

Demba NDIAYE

 

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Otto Schwieterman
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 3:05 PM
To: Bosch, Crina; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Cooking Equipment and Elevators/ Exhaust fans

 

My only suggestion would be to perform a save-as and change the misc equipment energy consumption to zero for the elevator (and then do it again for the kitchen) to find the equipment usage and demand.

 

If your independent fans are exhaust fans, I would do the same thing that I mentioned above. 

 

The reports in eQUEST will not break out the equipment but you can write a narrative explaining that eQUEST cannot separate these loads and explain your procedure. I believe that the reviewer simply wants to make sure that the energy consumption is the same for these items in the baseline and proposed model.

 

From: Bosch, Crina [mailto:CBosch at karpinskieng.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:04 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Equest-users] Cooking Equipment and Elevators/ Exhaust fans

 

Dear users, 

 

I received form USGBC the following comment: 

 

“The project contains elevators and kitchen equipment in the actual design; however, the process energy related to the elevator and kitchen equipment was not included in each energy model, since Section 1.8 of the template does not include the process energy consumption for elevator or kitchen equipment. Revise the Proposed and Baseline models to include the process energy for elevator and kitchen equipment in the appropriate space in the models. In addition, update the template reflecting the changes.”

 

The kitchen equipment and elevators were input in the model under the equipment tab for each space as designed but I couldn’t separate them in eQuest from the Misc. Equip under the Consumption by Enduse Report or Demand Report. I verified everything I could and see how I can spit them and the only thing I found was this: “INTERIOR-EU - Accepts a list of up to 10 code-words specifying the end-use category of the INTERIOR-POWER. The code-words correspond to the end-use categories in the end-use reports (PS-E, PS-F, BEPS, BEPU). Acceptable entries are LIGHTS, TASK-LIGHTS, MISC-EQUIP, SPACE-HEATING, SPACE-COOLING, HEAT-REJECT, PUMPS&AUX, VENT-FANS, REFRIG-DISPLAY, HT-PUMP-SUPPLEM, DOMEST-HOT-WTR, and EXT-USAGE. “

In the end I understand that eQuest does not have the option of doing what the reviewer is asking for. 

 

The reviewer also wants the independent fans to be separated from the supply and return fans which I didn’t find how. 


Am I missing something here? 

 

Your help is appreciated. 

Thank you.

Crina Bosch

 

 

________________________________________________________________________________________
Fanning/Howey Associates, Inc. intends to send this transmission (including any attachments) only to the
designated individual or entity.   If you received this message in error, please notify the sender by replying
to the electronic mail (if electronic) or by telephone at the number indicated on this document.
Fanning/Howey Associates, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in the
electronic mail.  Fanning/Howey Associates, Inc., will not accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising
from the use of this electronic mail or attachments. Use, disclosure, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction
of this message by unintended recipients is not authorized and maybe unlawful.   Any information included in
this
 transmission that is not related to contracts with our authorization, verbal or written, by Fanning/Howey
Associates, Inc. may not be covered by our professional liability insurance. 
 


_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110124/78a9440e/attachment-0002.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1459 bytes
Desc: image001.jpg
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/equest-users-onebuilding.org/attachments/20110124/78a9440e/attachment-0002.jpeg>