[Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

[Paul Diglio]

Good eye Cam.

Paul Diglio




________________________________
From: Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com>
To: Cam Fitzgerald <cam at energyopportunities.com>
Cc: Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>; "Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>; 
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 1:19:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

Which is really confusing isn't it, since they specifically list a 
Fossil/Electic hybrid as a header on that table. Argh!



On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Cam Fitzgerald <cam at energyopportunities.com> 
wrote:

The reference to the predominant condition is the third footnote under Table 
G3.1.1A.
> 
> 
>Cam S. Fitzgerald, PE, LEED AP
> 
>Energy Opportunities, LLC
>a 7group company
>e-mail:  fitzgerald at sevengroup.com
> 
> 
> 
>From:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
>[mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Paul Diglio
>
>Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:45 AM
>To: Li, Lan
>
>Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
> 
>Lan:
>
>No, I could not find a section that mentions the predominate heating source of 
>the proposed be used as baseline heating source.
>
>The Advanced Energy Modeling manual costs $120.00 and is available only for 
>download.  It is a secure document and cannot be printed as a PDF, it can be 
>printed to hard-copy.
>
>Based on G3.1.3.2 and the Advance Energy Modeling manual extract below, my 
>understanding is that the baseline system can only use one source of fuel for 
>the HVAC systems and the baseline boiler plant for system 5 shall use the same 
>type of fuel as the proposed.  Does ASHRAE consider electricity as a fuel?  In 
>the 90.1-2004 definitions fuel is defined as 'a material that may be used to 
>produce heat or generate power by combustion'.
>
>Another example of the lack of coordination between LEED and ASHRAE 90.1. 
>
>If I understand your design correctly, your DOAS is using a natural gas furnace 
>and you have a VRV system for the space heating and cooling requirements.  So 
>your actual proposed heating source is electricity with a small secondary 
>natural gas use to precondition the outside air.  Since LEED says you cannot 
>have two energy sources for the HVAC systems in the baseline, your reviewer is 
>requesting that you use the proposed predominate source for the baseline.
>
>Would it not increase your energy savings to do as the reviewer requests?
>
>Paul Diglio
>
________________________________
 
>From:"Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>
>To: Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 10:11:03 AM
>Subject: RE: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
>Paul, 
>
>Does this manual say that I would use the predominant heating source of proposed 
>as the source for my base? We don’t have this book in our company library.
> 
>Thanks a lot!
> 
>Lan
> 
>Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C
>Mechanical Engineer
>Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC                                    
>1540 Corporate Woods Parkway
>Uniontown, OH 44685
>Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
>Fax: (330) 896-9180
>Cell:(330) 904-6292
> 
>lli at sbmce.com
>www.sbmce.com
> 
>Columbus Office (614) 448-1498
>üPlease consider the environment before printing this email.
>This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
>privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized representative 
>of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using, copying or distributing 
>the information in this e-mail or its attachments. If you have received this 
>e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and 
>delete all copies of this message and any attachments. 
>
>Thank you
> 
>
________________________________
 
>From:Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net] 
>Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:07 AM
>To: Li, Lan; cmg750 at gmail.com; Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com
>Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
> 
>Lan:
>
>In the Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED Technical Manual v.1 page 28 under 
>ASHRAE 90.1-2004 common errors for HVAC System, primary system type, the second 
>error is 'Baseline HVAC systems use both fossil fuel and electricity'.
>
>I assume this is why your reviewer requested that the baseline be changed to the 
>predominate heating energy source that was used in the proposed model.
>
>
>Paul Diglio
> 
>
________________________________
 
>From:"Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>
>To: Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>; cmg750 at gmail.com; 
>Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com
>Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 9:45:38 AM
>Subject: RE: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
>Paul, Paul and Carol,
> 
>This sentence just jumps into my eyes.  It is on ASHREA 90.1-2007 User’s manual 
>page G-22. 
>
> 
>Here is the interception. 
> 
>The performance rating rules for the baseline building HVAC system are shown in 
>Table G-A. This table shows the baseline building system types, based on 
>building type (nonresidential or
>residential), the number of floors, the floor area and the heating source 
>(electric or other). Note that a hybrid system refers to a system with any 
>combination of fossil and electric heat, and the baseline system for this is a 
>fossil fuel system.
> 
>I think I will stick with my gun and go for it. I will keep all of you posted 
>for the outcome of my review. Hopefully everyone will be clear on this matter 
>then.
> 
>Thanks!
> 
>Lan
>Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C
>Mechanical Engineer
>Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC                                    
>1540 Corporate Woods Parkway
>Uniontown, OH 44685
>Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
>Fax: (330) 896-9180
>Cell:(330) 904-6292
> 
>lli at sbmce.com
>www.sbmce.com
> 
>Columbus Office (614) 448-1498
>üPlease consider the environment before printing this email.
>This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
>privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized representative 
>of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using, copying or distributing 
>the information in this e-mail or its attachments. If you have received this 
>e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and 
>delete all copies of this message and any attachments. 
>
>Thank you
> 
>
________________________________
 
>From:Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net] 
>Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 5:48 PM
>To: Li, Lan; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
> 
>Lan:
>
>90.1-2007 requires a system 5 with a fossil fuel hot water boiler as you have 
>modeled, but in 90.1-2007 Table G3.1 Number 10 HVAC Systems Base Building 
>Performance column it states that you need to meet any system-specific 
>requirements in Section G3.1.3.
>
>In G3.1.3.2, it states that for system 5, the boiler plant shall use the same 
>fuel as the proposed design, which in your case is electric resistance and 
>compressor heat pump energy.  I would model electric hot water boilers.
>
>Paul Diglio
> 
>
________________________________
 
>From:"Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>
>To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
>Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 4:24:27 PM
>Subject: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
>Dear eQuesters,
> 
>I just got LEED review comments for my project. Our proposed design is VRF 
>system with roof top unit providing ventilation air. Roof top unit is using gas 
>as heating source. There are misc. elec. heaters in the building for places like 
>entries. I interpreted my building heating source as “electric hybrid” and used 
>hot water fossil fuel boiler as my base design. The comments I got read as the 
>follows:
>Section 1.1.A of the form indicates that the primary heating source is fossil 
>fuel. However, the electric heating energy use reported in Table EAp2-5 for the 
>Proposed Case exceeds the fossil fuel heating energy use. Please verify that the 
>correct heating source has been selected. If electric heating is the primary 
>heating source, please change the Baseline system type accordingly. Provide 
>updated simulation results and a revised Prerequisite Form as necessary.
>I couldn’t find an official definition either on LEED reference book or 90.1. 
>What is your take on this?
>Your input is highly appreciated! Thank you very much!
>Lan
> 
> 
> 
>Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C
>Mechanical Engineer
>Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC                                    
>1540 Corporate Woods Parkway
>Uniontown, OH 44685
>Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
>Fax: (330) 896-9180
>Cell:(330) 904-6292
> 
>lli at sbmce.com
>www.sbmce.com
> 
>Columbus Office (614) 448-1498
>üPlease consider the environment before printing this email.
>This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
>privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized representative 
>of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using, copying or distributing 
>the information in this e-mail or its attachments. If you have received this 
>e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and 
>delete all copies of this message and any attachments. 
>
>Thank you
> 
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-- 
Carol Gardner PE
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