[Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

Paul Riemer Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com
Fri Jul 1 10:59:21 PDT 2011


Paul (and maybe others):
I feel like you might be asserting either “just do whatever the reviewer tells you” and/or “When the Proposed heating is a hybrid of fossil fuel and electric hybrid, the Baseline heating source shall be determined by whichever consumption is larger in the Proposed model.” And I just can’t get on board with either of those statements.

To the electric boiler suggestion,  the whole right column addresses electrically heated baselines and each row results in either heat pump or electric resistance.  I could infer scenarios where Lan could get all or parts of his baseline building to the ‘electric and other’ column but I cannot see any scenario that ends up with an electric boiler in the baseline of Appendix G model.  I do recoil a bit that Appendix G always compares hybrid systems to a fossil fuel baseline but I do think 1) that is its intent and 2) to write that table another way seems like an rather daunting challenge.

Paul Riemer, PE, LEED AP
DUNHAM

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Paul Diglio
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 12:30 PM
To: Cam Fitzgerald
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org; Li, Lan
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

Good eye Cam.

Paul Diglio

________________________________
From: Carol Gardner <cmg750 at gmail.com>
To: Cam Fitzgerald <cam at energyopportunities.com>
Cc: Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>; "Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com>; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 1:19:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

Which is really confusing isn't it, since they specifically list a Fossil/Electic hybrid as a header on that table. Argh!

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Cam Fitzgerald <cam at energyopportunities.com<mailto:cam at energyopportunities.com>> wrote:
The reference to the predominant condition is the third footnote under Table G3.1.1A.


Cam S. Fitzgerald, PE, LEED AP

Energy Opportunities, LLC
a 7group company
e-mail:  fitzgerald at sevengroup.com<mailto:fitzgerald at sevengroup.com>



From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Paul Diglio

Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:45 AM
To: Li, Lan
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

Lan:

No, I could not find a section that mentions the predominate heating source of the proposed be used as baseline heating source.

The Advanced Energy Modeling manual costs $120.00 and is available only for download.  It is a secure document and cannot be printed as a PDF, it can be printed to hard-copy.

Based on G3.1.3.2 and the Advance Energy Modeling manual extract below, my understanding is that the baseline system can only use one source of fuel for the HVAC systems and the baseline boiler plant for system 5 shall use the same type of fuel as the proposed.  Does ASHRAE consider electricity as a fuel?  In the 90.1-2004 definitions fuel is defined as 'a material that may be used to produce heat or generate power by combustion'.

Another example of the lack of coordination between LEED and ASHRAE 90.1.

If I understand your design correctly, your DOAS is using a natural gas furnace and you have a VRV system for the space heating and cooling requirements.  So your actual proposed heating source is electricity with a small secondary natural gas use to precondition the outside air.  Since LEED says you cannot have two energy sources for the HVAC systems in the baseline, your reviewer is requesting that you use the proposed predominate source for the baseline.

Would it not increase your energy savings to do as the reviewer requests?

Paul Diglio
________________________________
From: "Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com<mailto:lli at sbmce.com>>
To: Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net<mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>>
Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 10:11:03 AM
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
Paul,

Does this manual say that I would use the predominant heating source of proposed as the source for my base? We don’t have this book in our company library.

Thanks a lot!

Lan

Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Engineer
Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC
1540 Corporate Woods Parkway
Uniontown, OH 44685
Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
Fax: (330) 896-9180
Cell:(330) 904-6292

lli at sbmce.com<mailto:lli at sbmce.com>
www.sbmce.com<http://www.sbmce.com/>

Columbus Office (614) 448-1498
ü Please consider the environment before printing this email.
This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized representative of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using, copying or distributing the information in this e-mail or its attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies of this message and any attachments.
Thank you

________________________________
From: Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net<mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>]
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:07 AM
To: Li, Lan; cmg750 at gmail.com<mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com>; Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com<mailto:Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com>
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

Lan:

In the Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED Technical Manual v.1 page 28 under ASHRAE 90.1-2004 common errors for HVAC System, primary system type, the second error is 'Baseline HVAC systems use both fossil fuel and electricity'.

I assume this is why your reviewer requested that the baseline be changed to the predominate heating energy source that was used in the proposed model.


Paul Diglio

________________________________
From: "Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com<mailto:lli at sbmce.com>>
To: Paul Diglio <paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net<mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>>; cmg750 at gmail.com<mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com>; Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com<mailto:Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com>
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 9:45:38 AM
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
Paul, Paul and Carol,

This sentence just jumps into my eyes.  It is on ASHREA 90.1-2007 User’s manual page G-22.

Here is the interception.

The performance rating rules for the baseline building HVAC system are shown in Table G-A. This table shows the baseline building system types, based on building type (nonresidential or
residential), the number of floors, the floor area and the heating source (electric or other). Note that a hybrid system refers to a system with any combination of fossil and electric heat, and the baseline system for this is a fossil fuel system.

I think I will stick with my gun and go for it. I will keep all of you posted for the outcome of my review. Hopefully everyone will be clear on this matter then.

Thanks!

Lan
Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Engineer
Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC
1540 Corporate Woods Parkway
Uniontown, OH 44685
Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
Fax: (330) 896-9180
Cell:(330) 904-6292

lli at sbmce.com<mailto:lli at sbmce.com>
www.sbmce.com<http://www.sbmce.com/>

Columbus Office (614) 448-1498
ü Please consider the environment before printing this email.
This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized representative of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using, copying or distributing the information in this e-mail or its attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies of this message and any attachments.
Thank you

________________________________
From: Paul Diglio [mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net<mailto:paul.diglio at sbcglobal.net>]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 5:48 PM
To: Li, Lan; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source

Lan:

90.1-2007 requires a system 5 with a fossil fuel hot water boiler as you have modeled, but in 90.1-2007 Table G3.1 Number 10 HVAC Systems Base Building Performance column it states that you need to meet any system-specific requirements in Section G3.1.3.

In G3.1.3.2, it states that for system 5, the boiler plant shall use the same fuel as the proposed design, which in your case is electric resistance and compressor heat pump energy.  I would model electric hot water boilers.

Paul Diglio

________________________________
From: "Li, Lan" <lli at sbmce.com<mailto:lli at sbmce.com>>
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 4:24:27 PM
Subject: [Equest-users] LEED review comments for System 5 heating source
Dear eQuesters,

I just got LEED review comments for my project. Our proposed design is VRF system with roof top unit providing ventilation air. Roof top unit is using gas as heating source. There are misc. elec. heaters in the building for places like entries. I interpreted my building heating source as “electric hybrid” and used hot water fossil fuel boiler as my base design. The comments I got read as the follows:

Section 1.1.A of the form indicates that the primary heating source is fossil fuel. However, the electric heating energy use reported in Table EAp2-5 for the Proposed Case exceeds the fossil fuel heating energy use. Please verify that the correct heating source has been selected. If electric heating is the primary heating source, please change the Baseline system type accordingly. Provide updated simulation results and a revised Prerequisite Form as necessary.

I couldn’t find an official definition either on LEED reference book or 90.1. What is your take on this?

Your input is highly appreciated! Thank you very much!

Lan




Lan Li, PE, LEED AP BD+C
Mechanical Engineer
Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC
1540 Corporate Woods Parkway
Uniontown, OH 44685
Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
Fax: (330) 896-9180
Cell:(330) 904-6292

lli at sbmce.com<mailto:lli at sbmce.com>
www.sbmce.com<http://www.sbmce.com/>

Columbus Office (614) 448-1498
ü Please consider the environment before printing this email.
This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient or an authorized representative of an intended recipient, you are prohibited from using, copying or distributing the information in this e-mail or its attachments. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies of this message and any attachments.
Thank you


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--
Carol Gardner PE
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