[Equest-users] Modeling a non-existing cooling system

[Jeremy Poling]

Also, LEED Interpretation 10130 issued November 1, 2011 covers using Addendum dn for LEED projects:

===
For projects containing heating-only storage buildings or spaces, it is acceptable to use system types #10 or #11 from the ASHRAE 90.1-2007 Addendum modifications to the Appendix G modeling protocol whenever applicable. ASHRAE 90.1-2007 Addendum dn establishes the Baseline system type for heated only storage buildings as System Type #10 (where the proposed case heating source is fossil fuel, fossil/electric hybrid or purchased heat) or #11 (where the proposed case heating source is electric or other). Furthermore, Section G3.1.1 Exception (e) states that thermal zones designed with heating only systems in the proposed design, serving storage rooms, stairwells, vestibules, electrical/mechanical rooms, and restrooms not exhausting or transferring air from mechanically cooled thermal zones in the proposed design shall use System type #10 or #11 in the Baseline Building design (Note: this exception would also apply for an enclosed heated-only parking garage or apparatus bay). Exception (f) states that if the Baseline system type is 10 or 11, all spaces that are mechanically cooled in the proposed building design shall be assigned to a separate baseline system determined by using the area and heating source or the mechanically cooled systems.
Note: If the project is served by a District Energy System, and the project is using Option 1 of the "Treatment of District or Campus Thermal Energy in LEED V2 and LEED 2009 - Design & Construction" document to achieve credit compliance, then the Baseline Case System Type #10 shall be revised to a single zone constant volume air handler with purchased hot water heating.
===

Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC


From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of McGrath, Brendan
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:56 PM
To: 'Jeff Ross-Bain'; 'Rob Hudson'; 'James Hess'
Cc: 'equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org'
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling a non-existing cooling system

Jeff -

ASHRAE published Addendum dn which covers heating only systems. In this addendum you'll find two new system types - 10 & 11.

Hope this helps!

Brendan

Brendan McGrath LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6754| m: | In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 215-735-7290
e: BMcGrath at in-posse.com | in posse web: www.in-posse.com<http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.akfgroup.com<http://www.akfgroup.com/>



From: Jeff Ross-Bain [mailto:jeff at rbgb.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:48 AM
To: 'Rob Hudson'; 'James Hess'
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling a non-existing cooling system

Thank you very much for your thoughts. This is very helpful.

Regards -

Jeff Ross-Bain, PE, LEED AP BD+C
Principal
404-220-8940 Office
404-220-8955 Direct
www.rbgb.com<http://www.rbgb.com/>

Build Green. Save Time

From: Rob Hudson [mailto:rdh4176 at gmail.com]<mailto:[mailto:rdh4176 at gmail.com]>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 7:26 AM
To: James Hess
Cc: Jeff Ross-Bain; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modeling a non-existing cooling system

As long as the cooling thermostat setpoints are identical in both models, USGBC should approve of it.  We have done this on numerous projects for small storage spaces and stairwells.

Rob
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 6:14 PM, James Hess <JHess at tmecorp.com<mailto:JHess at tmecorp.com>> wrote:
I believe you have to include the cooling system in the model (per ASHRAE), but with the cooling thermostat set-point set high (i.e. up to 90 degrees), per USGBC, which effectively makes this a moot point.  Is the cooling system in the model?  Yes, we met the modeling requirement.  Does it have any impact on the savings?  The answer would be no.

That is how I would handle this situation.

I have seen this written down somewhere, maybe a USGBC interpretation, just cannot remember where I saw this.

Regards,

JAH

James A. Hess, PE, CEM, BEMP
Energy Engineer
TME, Inc.
Little Rock, AR
Mobile: (501) 351-4667<tel:%28501%29%20351-4667>

From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Jeff Ross-Bain
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 1:59 PM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] Modeling a non-existing cooling system

Hi All,

>From my understanding of ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix G Table G3.1 (10) and the User's Manual, if a space has no cooling system, and it is a conditioned space (i.e. NOT semiheated), then that space must have a cooling system modeled and it would be identical for the proposed and baseline cases. I completely understand the logic of this requirement - in most cases.

However, I am working on a fire station where the apparatus bay (the fire trucks) are in a 4,000+ sq ft space that is heated only, but is a conditioned space and not a semiheated space. This space is almost half of the building area, will not be cooled, has large overhead doors that are mostly open, and is a place where diesel engines run.

Does anyone out there know of any exception, or interpretation, to this modeling rule for specific cases such as a fire station where a space can be modeled as heated only for the baseline and proposed cases? The model will be submitted for LEED review. I can certainly model a cooling system but it does not seem to make sense in this case.

Thanks for your input and I really appreciate this forum.

Cheers!

Jeff Ross-Bain, PE, LEED AP BD+C
Principal
404-220-8940<tel:404-220-8940> Office
404-220-8955<tel:404-220-8955> Direct
www.rbgb.com<http://www.rbgb.com/>

Build Green. Save Time

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Rob Hudson

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