[Trace-users] FW: GSHPs in Trace 700

Dahlstrom, Aaron ADahlstrom at in-posse.com
Mon Sep 23 14:15:19 PDT 2013


Posting this back to the list as there may be other listeners who find it valuable.

Aaron Dahlstrom, PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 212-354-5656
e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com | in posse web: www.in-posse.com<http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.AKFGroup.com

From: Joe Chappell [mailto:JoeC at designengineers.com]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 5:16 PM
To: 'Sturm, Eric'; Dahlstrom, Aaron
Subject: RE: GSHPs in Trace 700

Thanks, Eric and Aaron, for all of the information and the prompt responses.  I'm glad to have solid information to know the best possible approach to take with my configuration.

Joe

From: Sturm, Eric [mailto:esturm at trane.com]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 4:11 PM
To: Dahlstrom, Aaron
Cc: Joe Chappell
Subject: RE: GSHPs in Trace 700

With geothermal loops, you'll have to use the weighted average approach or some other equivalent if required by an authoritative body.

Eric Sturm
Applications Engineer
Trane Commercial Systems
Ingersoll Rand
3600 Pammel Creek Rd
La Crosse, WI 54601

Office:  +1.608.787.3736
Fax:  +1.608.787.3005
Email:  esturm at trane.com<mailto:esturm at trane.com>
Website:  www.trane.com<http://www.trane.com>

From: Dahlstrom, Aaron [mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 4:08 PM
To: Sturm, Eric
Cc: JoeC at designengineers.com<mailto:JoeC at designengineers.com>
Subject: RE: GSHPs in Trace 700

Great. I'm not familiar with plant sequencing so I appreciate your help.

So our best bet for a geothermal design with multiple styles (read EERs) of geothermal heat pumps is to input one cooling plant, one piece of equipment, and conduct a weighted average (by ton-hour) of the load handled by each distinct style, then enter that as a blended EER for our one piece of cooling equipment.

Aaron

Aaron Dahlstrom, PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 212-354-5656
e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com<mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com> | in posse web: www.in-posse.com<http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.AKFGroup.com

From: Sturm, Eric [mailto:esturm at trane.com]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 5:06 PM
To: Dahlstrom, Aaron
Cc: JoeC at designengineers.com<mailto:JoeC at designengineers.com>
Subject: RE: GSHPs in Trace 700

Aaron,

You can do exactly what you want, if you're not simulating a geothermal field.  You would have individual plants and assign the respective system coils to those plants.  But, when you add a geothermal field into the mix, everything must be constrained to a single cooling plant.

I've been following this list since its inception and when I was program manager for TRACE 700.  It's important that our users have accurate information.

Eric Sturm
Applications Engineer
Trane Commercial Systems
Ingersoll Rand
3600 Pammel Creek Rd
La Crosse, WI 54601

Office:  +1.608.787.3736
Fax:  +1.608.787.3005
Email:  esturm at trane.com<mailto:esturm at trane.com>
Website:  www.trane.com<http://www.trane.com>

From: Dahlstrom, Aaron [mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 3:57 PM
To: Sturm, Eric
Cc: JoeC at designengineers.com<mailto:JoeC at designengineers.com>
Subject: RE: GSHPs in Trace 700

Again, helpful, Eric.

This directly applies to the other project I'm working through.
There is no sequencing that allows me to isolate the load from a specific system to a specific piece of cooling equipment, correct?

Ie what I'd like to do is have Heat Pump A with EER_A associated with thermal loads from System_A, and Heat Pump B with EER_B associated with thermal loads from System_B. I believe this is not possible.

Can you confirm?

Thank you!!! (glad you monitor this list.)

Aaron Dahlstrom, PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 212-354-5656
e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com<mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com> | in posse web: www.in-posse.com<http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.AKFGroup.com

From: Sturm, Eric [mailto:esturm at trane.com]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 4:54 PM
To: Dahlstrom, Aaron
Cc: JoeC at designengineers.com<mailto:JoeC at designengineers.com>
Subject: RE: GSHPs in Trace 700

Aaron and Joe,

To be clear, you can only attach a single field and cooling plant together.  But, you could have multiple pieces of equipment in a single cooling plant.  This cooling plant could have a single geothermal field.  It would look something like this on the Configuration screen:

[cid:image001.png at 01CEB878.2CC5A620]

You'd want to create each equipment type and assign a capacity and energy rate, and then adjust the sequencing.  The trouble is, if you change the sequencing to parallel, each piece of equipment will load equally.  You wouldn't see variation between pieces of equipment throughout the day because they will split the incoming coil loads.

Eric Sturm
Applications Engineer
Trane Commercial Systems
Ingersoll Rand
3600 Pammel Creek Rd
La Crosse, WI 54601

Email:  esturm at trane.com<mailto:esturm at trane.com>
Website:  www.trane.com<http://www.trane.com>

From: Dahlstrom, Aaron [mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 3:41 PM
To: Dahlstrom, Aaron; Sturm, Eric
Cc: JoeC at designengineers.com<mailto:JoeC at designengineers.com>
Subject: RE: GSHPs in Trace 700

Eric - one followup question.

Is it possible to attach multiple cooling plants to the same field?

My understanding is no, but thought it worth it to confirm.

Aaron

Aaron Dahlstrom, PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 212-354-5656
e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com<mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com> | in posse web: www.in-posse.com<http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.AKFGroup.com

From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Dahlstrom, Aaron
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 4:37 PM
To: Sturm, Eric
Cc: 'trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org'
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] GSHPs in Trace 700

Right on, thanks Eric.

Aaron Dahlstrom, PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 212-354-5656
e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com<mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com> | in posse web: www.in-posse.com<http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.AKFGroup.com

From: Sturm, Eric [mailto:esturm at trane.com]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 4:33 PM
To: Dahlstrom, Aaron
Cc: Joe Chappell; 'trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org'
Subject: RE: GSHPs in Trace 700

Aaron,

To clear up any confusion, I'd like to comment on your statement on the usage of geothermal plants and TRACE 700 files.  TRACE is currently capable of modeling one geothermal field (as defined in the Geothermal Loop section of Plant Controls) per alternative.  Trane Customer Direct Services can help with modeling questions or capabilities questions.  The support center can be reached at 608-787-3926, option 1 or cdshelp at trane.com<mailto:cdshelp at trane.com>.

Thanks,
Eric Sturm
Applications Engineer
Trane Commercial Systems
Ingersoll Rand
3600 Pammel Creek Rd
La Crosse, WI 54601

Email:  esturm at trane.com<mailto:esturm at trane.com>
Website:  www.trane.com<http://www.trane.com>

From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Dahlstrom, Aaron
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 1:21 PM
To: Joe Chappell; 'trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org'
Subject: Re: [Trace-users] GSHPs in Trace 700

Joe -

The information I have heard (from this list serv, help files, and Trane Trace) has indicated that Trace can only model one geothermal plant per TRC file.

That said, I see nothing that would prohibit you from setting up multiple systems that all reference a common plant.

However, there will be a single "compressor" modeled.

Not sure if this is a LEED model - if so, per a recent LEED review we received, GBCI has requested us to -either- use the minimum EER / COP of all relevant heat pumps as the EER/COP entered into Trace, or to conduct averaging based on the ton-hours (eg capacity, quantity, hours of operation) of each system.

Aaron

Aaron Dahlstrom, PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 212-354-5656
e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com<mailto:ADahlstrom at in-posse.com> | in posse web: www.in-posse.com<http://www.in-posse.com/> | akf web: www.AKFGroup.com

From: trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Joe Chappell
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 2:06 PM
To: 'trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org'
Subject: [Trace-users] GSHPs in Trace 700

Hello,

I am currently attempting to model several ground source heat pump systems on a single ground loop all in the same cooling plant.  Two of the ground source heat pumps have energy recovery and two do not.  In my analysis reports I am only seeing energy usage in "Cooling Equipment - Cooling Mode" for one of the four heat pumps.  Is Trace able to model this arrangement?  Any tips on how to handle would be greatly appreciated.

Joe


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