[BLDG-SIM] Museum with multi Story Atriums - Low airflows..

Brandon Nichols BrandonN at Hargis.biz
Mon Jul 2 11:58:11 PDT 2007


John,
 
My thought was that we're not so much cooling and heating the entire
space as treating it as a contiguous entity.  Can anyone outside of
Scott Criswell say with certainty that air floors and air ceilings
permit connected multifloor spaces to behave thermodynamically
equivalent to multilevel spaces?  If so, or Scott if you're out there,
please advise.  Since shells can be placed anywhere, it seems to me
there would have to be sophisticated geometrical checking between spaces
within shells to make it work.
 
Admittedly I'm usually modeling two-level spaces -- gymnasiums
cafeterias etc. so perhaps when I say the method I use produces results
that are within expectations, my expectation bar is set rather low.
 
As for underheating, on several projects I have added baseboards to
eliminate the underheating warnings/errors in the simulation report.
While it get the heating load up in the ballpark of where it needs to
be, its not a perfect solution -- but as you say... deadlines!
 
Brandon

 
  _____  

From: Aulbach, John [mailto:jaulbach at nexant.com] 
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:33 AM
To: Brandon Nichols
Subject: RE: [BLDG-SIM] Museum with multi Story Atriums - Low airflows..


Brandon:
 
That should be "under heating."
 
I have seen your Atrium suggestions before. You seem to be cooling and
heating the entire atrium, which I do not believe is the case,
especially in the 3 story set up.
 
I don't have the time to rebuild my model, sad to say. deadlines..
  _____  

From: Brandon Nichols [mailto:BrandonN at Hargis.biz] 
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:20 AM
To: Aulbach, John
Subject: RE: [BLDG-SIM] Museum with multi Story Atriums - Low airflows..


Johh,
 
eQuest underestimating airflows?  I suppose the next thing you're going
to tell us is that the polar ice caps are melting! ;-)  
 
FWIW, I build atriums (i.e. multilevel spaces) a bit differently, see
this post:
 
http://elcca-exchange.blogspot.com/2007/03/equest-multi-level-spaces.htm
l
 
 
They seem to work essentially as expected.
 
Also, I'm not clear on what you mean exactly by 'overcooking'.
 
Brandon Nichols, PE
Mechanical
HARGIS ENGINEERS
600 Stewart St
Suite 1000
Seattle, WA 98101
d | 206.436.0400 c | 206.228.8707
o | 206.448.3376 f | 206.448.4450
www.hargis.biz


  _____  

From: BLDG-SIM at gard.com [mailto:BLDG-SIM at gard.com] On Behalf Of Aulbach,
John
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:33 AM
To: BLDG-SIM at gard.com
Subject: [BLDG-SIM] Museum with multi Story Atriums - Low airflows..


Hi Gang:
 
I am modeling a brand new multi story museum in eQuest in a 4 season
climate. The Museum has several atriums, some two story and some three
story. I have been making the atriums vertically multizoned, removing
the floors and ceilings, and creating airwalls between the atriums
levels.  I have conditioned all bottom atrium floors, conditioned the
2nd floors of the 3 story atriums, but have left the top floors of ALL
atriums unconditioned.
 
My difficulties are twofold:
 
1) This is to be an eventual LEED application, so ASHRAE 90.1-2004 is
the base building. This requires eQuest sized airflows for a 20 Deg
delta T, coil to room temperature.
 
This is resulting in airflows that are 60% down to 30% of what the
Design shows.
 
2) I also seem to undercooking many of the spaces, including the
atriums.
 
Am I modeling these atriums correctly?
 
I don't have much time to make changes, so any help is greatly
appreciated.
 
John R. Aulbach, PE, CEM
Project Manager
Nexant, Inc.
100 North Barranca, Suite 820
West Covina, CA 91791 USA
Phone: 626-430-9054
Fax: 626-430-9060
email: jaulbach at nexant.com
 
 
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