[Bldg-sim] Modeling existing buildings per LEED EAc1 / App G
Mark Sorensen
DEnergyServices at comcast.net
Sun Nov 2 13:30:39 PST 2008
Dakota,
I am in the process of modeling and submitting a couple of projects under
LEED Core and Shell. However, I'm not far enough along to have had any
reviews done yet. I have seen in both the LEED CS-2.0 and LEED NC-2.2
reference guides where existing buildings are addressed in EAc1 credit
Calculations. Both RGs state: "For existing buildings that are being
renovated, the building envelope design parameters for the Baseline Design
should be modeled using the existing (pre-retrofit) building envelope
thermal parameters rather than the ASHRAE Std. 90.1 prescriptive building
envelope requirements for the specified climate. Any proposed changes to the
building envelope (such as replacing windows or increasing roof insulation)
should be modeled in the Proposed Design".
Best of Luck,
Mark Sorensen
Diversified Energy Services
Fruitport, Michigan
DEnergyServices at comcast.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Dakota Kelley [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On
Behalf Of Dakota Kelley
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:11 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; JHANSEN at ghtltd.com
Subject: RE: Modeling existing buildings per LEED EAc1 / App G
James,
My understanding is that the baseline model becomes a bit of a mix for
existing buildings (and no, 90.1 2007 doesn't clarify much). The basic rule
I've followed is this: any part of the building that will be touched by the
new design should be modeled in the baseline per ASHRAE 90.1. In other
words, there's an implicit assumption that the existing building is below
the current ASHRAE minimum, and the minimum improvement for the proposed
design would be to bring it up to the standard. LEED credit is earned only
by exceeding this minimum improvement.
I would therefore answer your two questions as follows:
1) Are the HVAC, thermal parameters, and lighting being touched by the
proposed design? If so, then model them in the baseline per 90.1. If not,
then baseline = proposed = existing conditions.
The problem with the methodology above arises when existing conditions
currently exceed ASHRAE minimums. If this is the case, I would either
review the LEED CIR archives for advice, or I would model the existing
condition in the baseline and include a narrative with the submission
explaining that the existing condition already exceeded the ASHRAE minimum.
I admit I have not encountered this before, but I believe EA Credit 1's
intent is best served by maximizing the baseline performance.
2) Model the baseline with windows on that facade, percent matching the
proposed design if it's under 40%, but obviously keep the baseline window
performance as specified in 90.1.
I would appreciate anyone with differing advice to sound off; I'm working on
similar projects that would be affected, and I've had to change my
interpretation in the past. Thanks,
Dakota
-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of
bldg-sim-request at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Fri 10/31/2008 2:01 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 11, Issue 26
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Purchased hot water price (Steve Mignogna)
2. Re: Dubai Ecotect Weather File? (mathaase at hkusua.hku.hk)
3. Modeling existing buildings per LEED EAc1 / App G (James Hansen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:14:24 -0400
From: "Steve Mignogna" <smignogna at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Purchased hot water price
To: "Bishop, Bill" <bbishop at pathfinderengineers.com>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Message-ID:
<e160adb20810301414h4c6c3466ue01b73ac04ddb14e at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bill-
I have worked on alot of university projects that have their own central
plants and from my experience the price of chilled water and hot water will
vary from university to university---especially if schools are using co- or
tri-gen central plants. You should ask the client to provide you with the
rates. Sorry I could not be of any more help.
--
Steve Mignogna
Atelier Ten
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Bishop, Bill <
bbishop at pathfinderengineers.com> wrote:
> Can anyone suggest a source for determining an energy price for purchased
> hot water? I am modeling a campus building with a hot water loop and have
no
> idea how to price the "purchased" hot water ($/MBTU?) for determining
energy
> cost savings for LEED. The building is in NY. I searched the
eia.doe.govsite but couldn't find anything.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> *William Bishop**, EIT, LEED(R) AP** **|** **Pathfinder Engineers LLP*
>
> Mechanical Engineer
>
>
>
> 3300 Monroe Ave., Suite 306
> Rochester, NY 14618
>
> TEL (585) 218-0730 Ext. 114
> FAX (585) 218-0737
>
> bbishop at pathfinderengineers.com
>
>
>
> www.pathfinderengineers.com
>
> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:37:09 +0800
From: mathaase at hkusua.hku.hk
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Dubai Ecotect Weather File?
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Message-ID: <20081031183709.5tnl1yqusc0ok0wg at imp.webmail.hku.hk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=BIG5; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"
Jens,
try one of the links provided by gard:
http://www.gard.com/weather/index.htm
Good luck.
Best regards
Mat
----- Message from jvoshage at kasian.com ---------
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:42:02 -0700
From: Jens Voshage <jvoshage at kasian.com>
Reply-To: Jens Voshage <jvoshage at kasian.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Dubai Ecotect Weather File?
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> I know this has been asked before, but I can not find any working link: I
am
> looking for a weather file for Dubai that is either WEA format or some
other
> format that I can easily convert to be used in Ecotect.
>
> I found the file for Abu Dhabi 100 km north on the EnergyPlus Weather Data
> site but I suspect there might be differences in the local weather that
will
> affect our preliminary design studies.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Jens Voshage
>
>
>
>
>
> Jens Voshage
>
> Dip Arch, LEEDRAP
>
> Designer
>
> d 604 631 8236
>
> t 604 683 4145
>
> f 604 683 2827
>
> KASIAN ARCHITECTURE INTERIOR DESIGN AND PLANNING LTD
>
> 1555 West Pender Street, Suite 350
>
> Vancouver, British Columbia
>
> Canada V6G 2T1
>
> www.kasian.com
>
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice - The information in this email, including any
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:29:20 -0400
From: "James Hansen" <JHANSEN at ghtltd.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Modeling existing buildings per LEED EAc1 / App G
To: <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
<25F2BDB6656B8F40A1289ED906D6B5CF1960DE at EXCHANGE1.cadd_group.ghtltd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello,
I asked a question a few weeks ago about whether or not you have to rotate
the Baseline building in a LEED-NC EAc1 calculation (or Appendix G
calculation for some other reason). Thank you everyone for your replies
(see below)...it appears that yes, you do need to perform the four (4)
separate runs for each direction.
However, I have a more general question about modeling renovations to
existing buildings. According to the LEED-NC reference guide, you are to
model the Baseline building (if it is existing) with the same "thermal
parameters" as the existing building. Appendix G, Table G3.1 Section 5f)
says that "For Existing building envelopes, the baseline building design
shall reflect existing conditions prior to any revisions that are part of
the scope of work...".
Futhermore, the reference guide goes on to say that "For projects served by
existing HVAC systems, such as a central plant on a campus, Section 10(a) of
Table G3.1 states that when there is an existing HVAC system, the model
shall reflect the actual system type using actual component capacities and
efficiencies."
But this section is actually under the "Proposed" column, and I can't find
anywhere where it specifically says that the Baseline system should be
modeled as the existing building currently stands.
So I have two questions:
1) If you have an existing building, is the HVAC system supposed to be
modeled as it currently exists in the Baseline model, as well as things like
the thermal parameters, etc? What about the lighting? If you have an
existing building that you KNOW has a lighting density of 2.0 Watts / sq ft
pre-retrofit, is that how you should model the Baseline building?
2) If I have an existing building that happens to have one exposure
with NO windows, and part of the renovation is to install windows on that
side of the building, while STILL BEING BELOW 40% total window area. How do
I model the baseline building? With windows there or not? If not, then
that is a major penalty, and in reality, I may want to compare my Proposed
building to a Baseline model that is 90.1-2004 compliant. Can you even do
that if it is an existing building? Can you choose whether to model the
Baseline building it as it exists, or model it per minimum ASHRAE standards?
I haven't yet received a copy of 90.1-2007. Does Appendix G in that version
clarify any of this?
Thanks in advance!
James Hansen
GHT Limited
703-243-1200
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Dakota Kelley
Sent: Wed 10/22/2008 4:15 PM
To: Kevin Kyte
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Building rotation per Appendix G
Kevin,
I have since reversed my stance; Eric O'Neill was kind enough to provide
me with the following link:
http://lists.onebuilding.org/htdig.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/2007-Nov
ember/005709.html
I had not come across this thread before, and it sounds like existing
buildings need to be rotated regardless of the situation.
Dakota
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Kyte [mailto:kkyte at robsonwoese.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 3:00 PM
To: Dakota Kelley; JHANSEN at ghtltd.com
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Building rotation per Appendix G
What if it is an existing building and there have been alterations to
the
floorplan?
-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Dakota
Kelley
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 3:16 PM
To: JHANSEN at ghtltd.com
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Building rotation per Appendix G
James,
It is my understanding that it is not necessary to do the rotation on an
existing building. I am also working on an existing building, and I
plan to submit without rotating. This topic has been debated on the
forum in the past with opposing opinions, each side having reasonable
arguments, but if my memory is correct the best/last argument was that
existing buildings do not need to be rotated. I think this position
makes more intuitive sense, too.
I don't believe a definitive resource exists for this question, which is
why I plan to "learn the hard way" on my project. I have heard that
2009 LEED revisions will address questions specific to existing
buildings; hopefully this will be one of them. In the interim, I would
ask that anyone with a differing opinion specify the resource guiding
them.
Dakota Kelley
Telios Engineers
-----Original Message-----
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of
bldg-sim-request at lists.onebuilding.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 2:02 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Bldg-sim Digest, Vol 11, Issue 20
Send Bldg-sim mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:
1. Building rotation per Appendix G (James Hansen)
2. About weather data files (M F A Ramadan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:15:28 -0400
From: "James Hansen" <JHANSEN at ghtltd.com>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Building rotation per Appendix G
To: <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Message-ID:
<25F2BDB6656B8F40A1289ED906D6B5CF038E117F at EXCHANGE1.cadd_group.ghtltd.co
m>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm working on a project where I am pursuing LEED EAc1 for an existing
building. As I understand it from the LEED-NC reference guide, as well
as from some snippets of 90.1, I actually model the baseline building as
is currently exists. The reference guide says:
"For existing buildings that are being renovated, the building envelope
design parameters for the Baseline Design should be modeled using the
existing (pre-retrofit) building envelope thermal parameters rather than
the ASHRAE 90.1 prescriptive building envelope requirements for the
specified climate."
So I'm using actual window areas, actual insulation values, etc.
My question is: if I'm using this exception, do I also no longer have
to do a simulation at the four different azimuth required by the LEED
EAc1 template?
I find 90.1, as well as the user's manual, fairly lacking in describing
how to apply Appendix G to existing buildings in general....
Thanks in advance!
GHT Limited
James Hansen, PE, LEED AP
Senior Associate
1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200
Arlington, VA 22201-4749
703-338-5754 (Cell)
703-243-1200 (Office)
703-276-1376 (Fax)
www.ghtltd.com <http://www.ghtltd.com/>
The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be
privileged, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It is the
property of GHT Limited. Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this
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