[Bldg-sim] One model

Field, Kristin Kristin.Field at nrel.gov
Thu Mar 12 13:40:02 PDT 2009


I tried out IES-VE a few months or a year ago with some people because
the potential for this type of integration seemed very exciting.
However, we found the HVAC side to be pretty basic.  For a lot of
building types, there are significant savings to be had by changing HVAC
control schemes and/or configurations and using HVAC types that were not
well-represented in IES-VE the last time I saw it.  It seemed like a
great interface to use if you were trying to design a building to use
minimal energy due to envelope, orientation, natural ventilation, etc.
In other words, it seems strong on the loads calculation side.  On the
system use side, though, it seemed a lot more limited than DOE2 or
EnergyPlus.  For that reason, I have also stuck with the multiple-tools
method.  I agree with all who wrote that it would be wonderful to have
one integrated tool in the future!  Rob does bring up an interesting
point about the resolution of spaces needed for daylighting vs. thermal
vs. architectural modeling.  Architects especially have to be so
detailed in their models that I've often just ended up using the floor
plans they provided, deleting a bunch of elements out of those, and
scaling wall heights and windows.  Other than that, their 3D models only
serve to help me visualize the building myself.  It would be nice if we
didn't end up tripling the effort like we all do now, but so far I don't
see a great way around it (unless you don't need complex system modeling
- then you could use IES-VE as discussed below).

 

Kristin Field

 

________________________________

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of CARNEY
Ronan
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:34 PM
To: Rob Guglielmetti; Ross Harding
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] One model

 

Actually, I'm utilising IES to do HVAC design, Energy Analysis, PMV
calc, lighting lux design, lighting power intensity design and natural
daylight analysis all in line with the Australian Standards and Green
Star (another form of LEED) requirements. 

 

Although the software costs money, I've found it to be worthwhile
battling against it's flaws and it gives us the results which we
require. 

 

Please note, this is a one model approach. It's easy to start a project
at CD (concept design) stage within Google Sketchup and to utilise the
freeware version of IES to do alternate design analysis. However, it's
way better if the full suite is purchases and the model is crossed over
into IES. Within IES multiple analysis and detailed designs can be
modelled quickly and with fantastic final project results. I know, I've
done it.

 

Also with the daylight analysis, if you've got a detailed building with
over 100000 surfaces, it's going to take forever to do the analysis,
that's my only issue with the software. However, the software is
developing multithreading facility within it's software, therefore
decreasing the time for analysis dramatically.

 

Should anyone want to discuss my approaches further, and are in
Brisbane, I welcome the opportunity to meet and greet with you.

Regards,
Ronan Carney
Electrical Engineer
Project Services
*Level 5B 80 George St Brisbane
*Ph: (07) 3224 5983
*Fax: (07) 3224 6151
*Email: Ronan.Carney at projectservices.qld.gov.au
<mailto:Ronan.Carney at projectservices.qld.gov.au>  

 

________________________________

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Rob
Guglielmetti
Sent: Thursday, 12 March 2009 1:12 PM
To: Ross Harding
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] One model

 

On Mar 11, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Ross Harding wrote:

 

The ultimate goal for us would be to use one model for daylight and
energy models, but I haven't found that quite that simple as most
software requires varying drawing techniques.

 

Amen brother!  Another issue is that while the energy model has to
include the total building -- all spaces and systems -- to be a complete
picture of the energy use, a Radiance-based daylight model does not
necessarily require all the spaces to be modeled simultaneously.
Indeed, the accuracy of the ambient calculation is directly affected by
the maximum size of the scene, and so conducting a simultaneous daylight
simulation of an entire building at an acceptably rigorous ambient
resolution can be -- is generally -- time-prohibitive.

 

As mentioned in a recent thread on this list, Thomas Bleicher's "su2rad"
plugin for SketchUp can export a SU model to Radiance format and there
is also an E+ plugin to allow one to use the same SU model for E+
analysis; in theory, these three components (SketchUp, su2rad and the E+
plugin) allow for a "single model" approach to energy and daylight
modeling. However, because the su2rad exporter wants to take the entire
model and create a single Radiance scene description, that creates the
aforementioned problem of the ambient calculation getting out of hand
fairly quickly.  I suppose through intelligent layering and model
structuring, one could create a model that could be exported to Radiance
in "space components", but I'm not sure if this is compatible with the
E+ plugin's layering/model organization requirements.

 

- Rob Guglielmetti

 

********************************************************

Kristin M. Field

Engineer II - Mechanical

Electricity, Resources & Building Systems Integration

National Renewable Energy Laboratory

1617 Cole Blvd.

Mail Stop #1725

Golden, CO  80401

Phone: 303.384.7376

Fax: 303.384.7540

 

 

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