[Bldg-sim] GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of garage fans?

[Erik Dyrr]

I don't know what section of 90.1 requires garage ventilation control
either.  Nathen's assumption that CO controlled garage ventilation fans
rarely run is correct.  We did a fair amount of M&V for a utility that
rebated CO control retrofits.  Significant savings were achieved.  Most
systems ran 24/7 and CO systems rarely operated.

I think if you clearly make the case for the baseline and take a
conservative estimate of the proposed, it will get accepted.  I was
preparing to submit a project in this manner when it went bankrupt and came
to a halt!

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Nathan Miller <nathanm at rushingco.com>wrote:

>  I know this is a contentious issue on bldg-sim regarding whether this
> should be a allowable measure or not.
>
>
>
> I can tell you that on a recent office building project (LEED-NC v2.2) we
> submitted for energy savings from garage CO sensors. The only comment we got
> from the reviewer was that “ASHRAE mandates some sort of timed control or CO
> control as part of the mandatory measures,” so we couldn’t compare against a
> 24/7 constant volume system. I wish they had quoted a specific section of
> 90.1 for clarity.
>
>
>
> We switched the baseline system to be off for ~6 hours during the night
> (not in agreement with the IMC requirement for continuous air movement), and
> they accepted our energy savings.
>
>
>
> Our proposed case simply had the fans on a VFD and we created a custom
> schedule, which we presented to the reviewer, to reflect that the fans
> typically were at their lowest setting, and only ramped up for peak
> commuting hours (small peaks for morning and lunch, big peak at end of the
> day when all the cold engines start up and really put out the CO).
>
>
>
> It is unclear to me if you are modeling a residential garage, where there
> may genuinely be 24/7 use, if you get to compare to a 24/7 constant volume
> system.
>
>
>
> Nathan Miller
>
> *Senior Energy Engineer/Mechanical Engineer*
>
> direct: 206.788.4577
>
> fax: 206.285.7111
>
>
>
> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf Of *James Hansen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:09 AM
> *To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* [Bldg-sim] GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of garage
> fans?
>
>
>
> Does anyone know if the GBCI reviewers are currently accepting ECMs based
> off of garage carbon monoxide sensors to index garage fans?  Or if this can
> actually be included in the model with appropriate explanation?
>
>
>
> IMC requires constant ventilation for enclosed garages, but allows CO-based
> systems to activate the fans.  This equates to a substantial energy savings
> since most systems like this only operate a few hours in the morning,
> evening, and at lunch (other than the minimum 0.05 cfm / sq ft continuous
> ventilation required by the IMC).
>
>
>
> If we explain the system, and explain our assumptions for the use schedules
> that dictate the proposed building fan schedules for the garage, is this
> acceptable?
>
>
>
> Do they require any backup support/studies for exactly how often the CO
> levels will rise above acceptable limits, or is it sufficient to make a
> conservative assumption that the garage fans will operate from 7-9am,
> 11-1pm, and 4-6pm at full load?  In my engineering experience, CO-based
> systems rarely run, and the circulation fans throughout the garage (which
> approximate the continuous 0.05 cfm / sq ft requirements of the IMC CO-based
> systems) are what really prevent isolated CO buildup.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
>
> *GHT Limited
> **James Hansen**, PE, LEED AP*
>
> *Senior Associate***
>
> 1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200
>
> Arlington, VA  22201-4749
>
> 703-338-5754 (Cell)
>
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>
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>
> www.ghtltd.com
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