[Bldg-sim] GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of garage fans?

Vishnuraj Nair vishnu at kalpakrit.com
Sun Nov 22 21:49:22 PST 2009


Dear Friends,

Is there any specific schedule (type fraction) specified by ASHRAE that can
be used for CO tracking in the basement using VFD fans?

In this case to claim saving I am thinking of using constant volume fans for
the baseline building basement with schedule fraction =1 for 24 hrs and 
use VFD fans for the proposed building basement with Schedule fraction less
than 1 and varying for 24 hrs.

Right now for proposed building iam thinking of using following fraction for
24 hrs based on the timing when people will be coming in and going out of
the office building.

"Day Schedule fraction" = DAY-SCHEDULE-PD
   TYPE             = FRACTION
   VALUES           = (0.3, 0.3, 0.3, 0.3, 0.3, 0.3, 0.3, 0.75, 1, 1, 0.75,
0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.75, 1, 1, 0.75, 0.5, 0.3, 0.3, 0.3)

Just wanted to confirm if there are any specific fractions that ASHRAE
specifies to be used for the VFD fans to claim saving over the constant
volume fans so that savings can be claimed for CO tracking in the basement.


Vishnuraj Nair
Energy Analyst.
Kalpakrit Sustainable Environments Pvt. Ltd. 
New Delhi.
Tel: +91.124.4309490-92 Ext: 312 , Fax: +91.124.4309493
E-mail : vishnu at kalpakrit.com

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Baseline Modeling for LEED (Hintz, Scott F)
   2. Re: GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of	garage	fans?
      (Paul Riemer)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:29:04 -0500
From: "Hintz, Scott F" <ScottF.Hintz at trane.com>
To: Christopher Schaffner <chris at greenengineer.com>, Vikram Sami
	<VSami at lasarchitect.com>, Nathan Miller <nathanm at rushingco.com>,
	"Rimes,	Christie" <Christie.Rimes at wspfk.com>, Steven Rutter
	<srutter at airsystems1.com>, "bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org"
	<bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED
Message-ID:
	
<5FB9895395D2C5468D80744460969A50678C66A3DC at ISR-NAMSG-03.mgdir.irco.com>
	
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

To add to this the ECB subcommittee of ASHRAE 90.1 has ruled an
interpretation restating that the ventilation requirements of G3.1.2.5 are
"energy neutral." Otherwise stated the total ventilation requirement (i.e.
building total outdoor air intake flow) for the proposed model must be the
same as the baseline model.

Scott Hintz, LEED(r) AP
C.D.S. Marketing Engineer

Trane Commercial Systems

Ingersoll Rand

3600 Pammel Creek Road

La Crosse, WI 54601-7599



Office +1 608 787 2196

Fax +1 608 787 3005

Email:  scottf.hintz at trane.com<mailto:scottf.hintz at trane.com>
Website:  www.trane.com<http://www.trane.com/>
________________________________
From: Christopher Schaffner [mailto:chris at greenengineer.com]
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 10:32 AM
To: Vikram Sami; Nathan Miller; Rimes, Christie; Steven Rutter;
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED

Under current LEED EAc1/ASHRAE 90.1:  Use the same ventilation rate in both
base and design cases, with a few limited exceptions (read the CIRs about
lab air change rates, etc.)

This will likely evolve for LEED 2012.

Chris Schaffner, PE
Vice-Chair EA TAG


On 11/19/09 5:19 PM, "Vikram Sami" <VSami at lasarchitect.com> wrote:
I always assumed that if you went to 30% extra, you kept the baseline at
100%, and the designed building at 130%, but after reading this, it does
seem to make sense that you would increase both occurrences.

Can anyone from the EA Tag chime in?


Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE




From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Miller
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 4:42 PM
To: 'Rimes, Christie'; 'Steven Rutter'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED

I disagree, I believe the models should be same-same on ventilation rates.
See section 90.1 (2004) Section G3.1.2.5. It states:

"Minimum outdoor air ventilation rates should be the same for the proposed
and baseline building designs."

In my projects (including those that include 30% additional outside air), I
have always used the same outdoor air flow rates, unless I was taking credit
for demand control ventilation in the proposed case (see the exception
allowed in that same ASHRAE section).


Nathan Miller
Senior Energy Engineer/Mechanical Engineer
direct: 206.788.4577
fax: 206.285.7111


From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Rimes, Christie
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:32 PM
To: Steven Rutter; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED

In  my experience you do not increase the baseline energy model as you are
being awarded (gaining that point) when you achieve the ventilation credit.
There are a few similar situations in LEED where by achieving one credit
will prevent you from achieving another but this happens to everyone so it
works out to be somewhat fair.


[cid:image003.jpg at 01CA69ED.CF6419D0]


From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Steven Rutter
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 1:25 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Baseline Modeling for LEED

All,
There is a credit in LEED (EQc2.0) that involves increasing the required
ventilation rate by 30%.  In trying to achieve this credit, the amount of
energy would have to increase to condition that additional 30% OSA.  Does
anyone know if you are supposed to increase the baseline energy model's
ventilation rate so it has the same ventilation rate as the proposed
building?  Thank you in advance for your help.


Steven Rutter, LEED(r) AP, EIT

[cid:image002.jpg at 01CA69ED.6F8EDE00]
3850 Happy Lane|Sacramento, CA 95827
O:916-368-0336|F:916-368-0337|C:916-717-7484
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:23:32 -0600
From: Paul Riemer <Paul.Riemer at dunhameng.com>
To: 'Erik Dyrr' <erik.dyrr at gmail.com>, Nathan Miller
	<nathanm at rushingco.com>
Cc: "bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org" <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of
	garage	fans?
Message-ID:
	<057EF46662FE994F8119F0A903BCD0F82D2824D3C7 at eml1.dunham.corp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Continuous low level exhaust can ensure your occupied space is positive and
the garage is negative, especially under apartments that are not directly
mechanically ventilated.

Can anyone show me a section of an ASHRAE or other code that prohibits the
continuous ventilation of a garage?

I respect USGBC/GBCI's authority to make determinations for their ratings
systems; such as method(s) of determining savings for CO control of garage
fans.
However, they need to take ownership of those determinations and apply them
consistently and transparently.

Paul Riemer



From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Erik Dyrr
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 5:05 PM
To: Nathan Miller
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of garage
fans?

I don't know what section of 90.1 requires garage ventilation control
either.  Nathen's assumption that CO controlled garage ventilation fans
rarely run is correct.  We did a fair amount of M&V for a utility that
rebated CO control retrofits.  Significant savings were achieved.  Most
systems ran 24/7 and CO systems rarely operated.

I think if you clearly make the case for the baseline and take a
conservative estimate of the proposed, it will get accepted.  I was
preparing to submit a project in this manner when it went bankrupt and came
to a halt!
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Nathan Miller
<nathanm at rushingco.com<mailto:nathanm at rushingco.com>> wrote:
I know this is a contentious issue on bldg-sim regarding whether this should
be a allowable measure or not.

I can tell you that on a recent office building project (LEED-NC v2.2) we
submitted for energy savings from garage CO sensors. The only comment we got
from the reviewer was that "ASHRAE mandates some sort of timed control or CO
control as part of the mandatory measures," so we couldn't compare against a
24/7 constant volume system. I wish they had quoted a specific section of
90.1 for clarity.

We switched the baseline system to be off for ~6 hours during the night (not
in agreement with the IMC requirement for continuous air movement), and they
accepted our energy savings.

Our proposed case simply had the fans on a VFD and we created a custom
schedule, which we presented to the reviewer, to reflect that the fans
typically were at their lowest setting, and only ramped up for peak
commuting hours (small peaks for morning and lunch, big peak at end of the
day when all the cold engines start up and really put out the CO).

It is unclear to me if you are modeling a residential garage, where there
may genuinely be 24/7 use, if you get to compare to a 24/7 constant volume
system.

Nathan Miller
Senior Energy Engineer/Mechanical Engineer
direct: 206.788.4577
fax: 206.285.7111

From:
bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuil
ding.org>
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists
.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of James Hansen
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:09 AM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Bldg-sim] GBCI approval of carbon monoxide control of garage fans?

Does anyone know if the GBCI reviewers are currently accepting ECMs based
off of garage carbon monoxide sensors to index garage fans?  Or if this can
actually be included in the model with appropriate explanation?

IMC requires constant ventilation for enclosed garages, but allows CO-based
systems to activate the fans.  This equates to a substantial energy savings
since most systems like this only operate a few hours in the morning,
evening, and at lunch (other than the minimum 0.05 cfm / sq ft continuous
ventilation required by the IMC).

If we explain the system, and explain our assumptions for the use schedules
that dictate the proposed building fan schedules for the garage, is this
acceptable?

Do they require any backup support/studies for exactly how often the CO
levels will rise above acceptable limits, or is it sufficient to make a
conservative assumption that the garage fans will operate from 7-9am,
11-1pm, and 4-6pm at full load?  In my engineering experience, CO-based
systems rarely run, and the circulation fans throughout the garage (which
approximate the continuous 0.05 cfm / sq ft requirements of the IMC CO-based
systems) are what really prevent isolated CO buildup.

Thanks in advance,

GHT Limited
James Hansen, PE, LEED AP
Senior Associate
1010 N. Glebe Rd, Suite 200
Arlington, VA  22201-4749
703-338-5754 (Cell)
703-243-1200 (Office)
703-276-1376 (Fax)
www.ghtltd.com<http://www.ghtltd.com/>
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unlawful.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify
me immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to
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