[Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1

[Seth P. Spangler]

Clark,

 

I encountered this situation once and was told to use the default energy
rate within eQuest. The project did get certified however it was before
the DES Guideline document was released when only step one was required.

 

The other option is to look into calculating the cost of the thermal
energy which is most likely not a part of your fee. This is a huge
market that DES companies are starting to realize they need in order to
have LEED buildings connect to their systems.

 

Thanks

 

Seth Spangler, LEED(r) AP 

Project Engineer

 

RMF Engineering, Inc 

Ph: (843) 971-9639 ext:1497

Fax: (843) 971-9641 

sspangle at rmf.com

From: Clark Denson [mailto:cdenson at ssr-inc.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:51 AM
To: Matutinovic, Luka; Seth P. Spangler; Karen Walkerman;
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1

 

Luka,

 

I believe Seth was addressing utility rates in Step 2, the Aggregate
Building / DES scenario.  In that case, I agree that actual fuel costs
(e.g. electricity and fuel oil) should be used.  However, my question
was in regards to Step 1, when fuel costs associated with cooling and
heating equipment in the existing central energy plant are to be
replaced with costs for "Purchased Energy."  In this case, what Chilled
Water and Hot Water rates should be used, particularly if there is no
nearby District Thermal Energy provider from which to infer "local
market rates?"  Additionally, the USGBC "DTE Treatment" document refers
to the USGBC Reference Guide to answer this question, but I have been
unable to find what part is being referenced.

 

Thanks,

Clark

 

From: Matutinovic, Luka [mailto:LMatutinovic at halsall.com] 
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 11:20 PM
To: Clark Denson; Seth P. Spangler; Karen Walkerman;
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1

 

Clark,

 

I believe the document you are looking for is here:

http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=4176

 

Let me see if I understand your question correctly: you're not certain
what energy rate to apply to the steam or hot water used by the new
building since there isn't another example of a hot water or steam plant
in the state from which to obtain rates?  If that's the case, you don't
need to look for rates.  As Seth pointed out and as far as I know you
only need to find the local rate for whatever fuel the CEP is using to
generate hot water or steam.  If they are using oil, then the local oil
rate (likely the commercial rate, not the residential one) would apply.
Ultimately, the CEP is consuming some type of fuel to generate thermal
energy and the building is modelled as also consuming the same fuel.  I
believe the intent of this methodology is to prevent any skewing of
results that might arise from the CEP's abilities to use economies of
scale to offer lower rates, or conversely charge premiums for capital
investment and maintenance.  This ensures that only the efficiency of
the building, the CEP and the distribution systems factors into the EAc1
calculation.

 

I hope that answers your question.

 

Cheers,

Luka

 

Luka Matutinovic, B.A.Sc., LEED(r) AP

 
T. 416.644.0649

F. 416.487.9766  
Toll Free 1.888.425.7255
www.halsall.com 

HALSALL ASSOCIATES LTD. 
Toronto  Richmond Hill  Ottawa  Sudbury 
Burlington  Calgary  Vancouver  Dubai 

'50 Best Workplaces in Canada' 
2009 Globe and Mail
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail

 

 

________________________________

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org on behalf of Clark Denson
Sent: Fri 02/10/2009 5:02 PM
To: Seth P. Spangler; Karen Walkerman; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1

I've been interested in the topic of District Thermal Energy treatment,
as well.  

 

My question concerns Step 1 (Building stand-alone scenario):  In a
campus setting like a hospital, new buildings are typically served by an
existing CEP, and yet the new building is not charged a rate for CHW or
HW.  The USGBC guidance indicates that in this case, "local market rates
as explained in the LEED v2.2 Reference Guide" should be used.  However,
I have not found this data to be readily accessible, nor have I found
guidance in the LEED Reference Guide.  In my most recent project in
Florida, I've been able to find District Chilled Water plants close to
the project site, but it is my understanding that there is not a single
District Hot Water or Steam Plant in the entire state!

 

What do I do in this case?  And where in the LEED Reference Guide is the
"Treatment" referring to?

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Clark Denson

 

From: Seth P. Spangler [mailto:sspangle at rmf.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 12:44 PM
To: Karen Walkerman; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1

 

Karen,

 

I gave a presentation on this subject  with a member from USGBC and this
exact question was brought up. The answer was to use the local rate for
both systems. LEED/ASHRAE require that the energy rate be the same for
both the baseline and proposed designs. Fuel and electricity rates are
assigned using the local utility rate schedules as they would normally
apply to the building and using the normal ASHRAE and LEED modeling
rules. This line while a little ambiguous means that you should use the
rate that would be applied to the building if it was not connected to
the plant, not the discounted rate that the plant most likely receives. 

 

Thanks

 

Seth Spangler, LEED(r) AP 

Project Engineer

 

RMF Engineering, Inc 

Ph: (843) 971-9639 ext:1497

Fax: (843) 971-9641 

sspangle at rmf.com

From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Karen
Walkerman
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:21 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Simulation of Central Plant for LEED 2.2 EA C1

 

Hi All,

I'm completing a model of a building that is heated by a central campus
steam plant for LEED NC 2.2 EA P1 and C1.  I've followed the guidelines
in "Required Treatment of District Thermal Energy in LEED NC 2.2 and
LEED for Schools" dated May 28, 2008.

I'm doing pretty well, but I'm a bit confused by the following paragraph
(page 8 under the heading: Energy Model Implementation - Energy rates)

Step 2 (Aggregate Building / DES scenario) - in this modeling scenario
the DES-supplied energy is not
modeled as cost-neutral purchased energy, and thus purchased DES rates
(chilled water, steam, hot
water) are ignored. Fuel and electricity rates are assigned using the
local utility rate schedules as they
would normally apply to the building and using the normal ASHRAE and
LEED modeling rules. For
the Baseline Building the rates are applied to the code-compliant
heating or cooling plant as instructed
in Appendix G, and for the Proposed Building the rates are applied to
the virtual plant according to the
actual energy sources used in the upstream DES (electricity, gas, oil,
etc.).

They are a bit unclear...

If the central plant burns #6 oil, do you use the local rate for #6 oil
for the proposed system and the local rate for home heating oil for the
baseline?

OR

do you use the local rate for home heating oil for both?

Has anyone submitted one of these projects yet?

Thanks for your help.

--
Karen

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