[Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames

Andy Hoover andyhoover at thebestconsultant.com
Fri Jul 16 06:01:09 PDT 2010


Hey all:

 

We do not know Alex at all but completely support his position that it is
the entire assembly/full frame in use that counts.   We are a building
envelope consultancy and deal principally in the built market and see this
issue all of the time where the performance of window, storefront and
curtain wall units is dramatically different than that ‘calculated’ or
provided.   As a matter of fact, it is the unfortunate norm.  At the end of
the day it is about actual in use performance and that performance versus
what was calculated.  I will stay away from installation difference in this
one J.

 

Anyway, we do agree with and have seen the truth to his assessment of frame
differences.  It is only the performance of the entire assembly, at every
level of a structure as a whole, that counts in the real world.  

 

Thanks and take care,

 

Andy 

 

Andy Hoover

Principal

The BEST Consultant, Inc.

Cell: 678-793-1159

Office: 678-200-7648

Fax: 678-827-0574

Email: andyhoover at thebestconsultant.com

Web: www.thebestconsultant.com

 

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From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Alex Krickx
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:57 PM
To: Otto Schwieterman; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames

 

Hi Otto,

 

Serious Materials provides full frame performance data here:
http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/Datasheets/. I have also
have some of our commercial packages modeled in curtainwall and storefront
framing systems that I can provide upon request.

 

Firstly let me say that Window5 is a great tool – I use it often and love
it. The only thing I would advise is that there can be a wide distribution
in frame U-factors. The default U-factor for a thermally broken aluminum
(TBA) frame in Window 5 is U-1.0. Using THERM and Window5 I’ve seen TBA
frame U-factors vary from as low as 0.8 to as high as 1.5. The resultant
full-frame U-factor using these 2 differing TBA frames (and the same glass
package) is: 0.29 (R-3.4) for the poorer performing frame, and 0.22 (R-4.5)
for the better frame.

 

I would say that putting either of those full frame u-factors in your energy
model will yield pretty different results. 

 

I think it’s really important that we, as simulators and modelers, look at
full-frame performance because this is the system that will be installed in
the building. Center-of-Glass data can be useful comparing two different
glass packages, but at the end of the day, it’s a framed system that will be
installed and a framed system that should be analyzed. My 2¢.

 

Regards,

Alex Krickx

 

 

Alex Krickx

Building Energy Specialist

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1250 Elko Dr, Sunnyvale, CA 94089

(t) 408.541.8124

 

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From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Otto
Schwieterman
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:10 PM
To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: [Bldg-sim] Window performance with frames

 

Does anyone know of a window manufacturer web site that has literature on
its windows including the frame? I am using Trace 700 for EA Credit 1 and
the reviewer asked for manufacturer data sheets for window performance
values (U-value, VLT and SHGC) including the frame. 

 

Your help is appreciated,

 

Otto

 

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