[Bldg-sim] [Equest-users] fire station modeling

[David Eldridge]

That is a good point about the exception size of 20,000 ft2 for baseline
systems, and I think the USGBC and/or GBCI would be justified in issuing a
general clarification about how to specifically approach fire stations as
many of them are LEED registered based on municipal requirements, and they
very frequently will have this mixture of usage types and small conditioned
areas.  For fire stations, this isn't an exception, it is the rule!



My own LEED Gold fire station project was under v2.1, so I can’t help you
there.



The requirements for the Apparatus Bay spaces are so wildly different than
the residential areas that logically they should be separate systems,
regardless of the noted exceptions…these are clearly two different building
types, even if each is below the 20,000 ft2 individually.  Or even sometimes
in total!  And we haven’t even reached the “office” spaces in the building
yet…



Also you may want to raise the issue on bldg-sim rather than equest-users,
as this could come up for users of all software packages?



David



*
*



*David S. Eldridge, Jr.**, P**.**E**.**, LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, HBDP*

Project Manager



Direct: (847) 316-9224 | Fax: (847) 328-4550

http://www.grummanbutkus.com



*Grumman/Butkus Associates* | 820 Davis Street, Suite 300 | Evanston, IL
60201

Energy Efficiency Consultants and Sustainable Design Engineers

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> -----Original Message-----

> From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-

> bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Poling

> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:52 AM

> To: Cam Fitzgerald; Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.; equest-users; bldg-sim-

> subscribe at onebuilding.org

> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] fire station modeling

>

> Also, see the note at the bottom of Table G3.1.1A: "Where attributes

> make a building eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the

> predominant condition to determine the system type for the entire

> building."  The USGBC/GBCI and ASHRAE have both ruled that the

> predominant condition is determined by which type has the largest

> percentage of the total area.

>

> I would recommend contacting the reviewers either through LEED-Online or

> through the GBCI "Contact us" page (select the topic "Questions about

> Review Comments") if you can show with area calculations that the

> percentage of the residential quarters at the station is less than the

> other functions.  The reviewers will probably count the vehicle bays as

> part of the residential so I would do the same just to limit the

> back-and-forth.

>

> Jeremy R. Poling, PE, LEED AP+BDC

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org

> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Cam

> Fitzgerald

> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:07 AM

> To: Patrick J. O'Leary, Jr.; equest-users;

> bldg-sim-subscribe at onebuilding.org

> Subject: Re: [Equest-users] fire station modeling

>

> Patrick,

>

> If you look in Section 3.2 of 90.1-2004, the definition for

> "residential" lists fire stations as the last example of residential

> space types. Hope this helps.

>

> Cam Fitzgerald

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org

> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Patrick

> J. O'Leary, Jr.

> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:51 AM

> To: equest-users; bldg-sim-subscribe at onebuilding.org

> Subject: [Equest-users] fire station modeling

>

> has anyone received a comment on eac1 requiring the use of residential

> ptac systems in the baseline building when modeling fire stations?  i

> have seen the following comments on two fire station projects recently

> with no further background material concerning the source of the

> residential determination from the reviewers than the statements below.

>

> this, to me, is not what previous usgbc cirs, 90.1 (2004 or 2007), or

> the 90.1 user's manual say.   per 90.1 and the previous usgbc cirs the

> predominant use of the building, based on sf and number of stories,

> determine what type of systems are used.  for a building less than

> 20,000 sf this is typically going to be packaged gas or heat pump units.

>

> project 1 (leed v2.2 project)

> "The Baseline system type modeled does not seem consistent with the

> system mapping from Table G.3.1.1.A. Please note the GBCI has determined

>

> that Fire Stations are considered residential for the purposes of

> completing EAc1 credit.  Please confirm that the Baseline system (and

> principle heating source) was modeled correctly, or revise the system

> type to reflect ASHRAE modeling protocol. Also, if any exceptions are

> utilized from G3.1.1 please provide a explanation for the exception."

>

> project 2 (leed v2.2 project)

> "5. Table 1.4 indicates the Baseline Primary HVAC system as a type #3,

> which does not appear to be consistent with the system mapping from

> Table G.3.1.1.A. The sleeping quarters (residential) should be modeled

> as a system type #1 and the non-residential areas as a type #3. Please

> provide a narrative confirming that the Baseline model sleeping quarters

>

> have been modeled using System #1, Constant Volume PTAC, with DX

> cooling, and Fossil Fuel boiler. The narrative shall also include size

> of equipment modeled within the Baseline model. Revise Baseline Unitary

> Equipment Cooling and Boiler parameters to match Tables 6.8.1A and

> 6.8.1E of ASHRAE 90.1-2004 and include Proposed Unitary Equipment

> Cooling and size of the boilers. Please revise the Baseline and Proposed

>

> models, and update the Template, and supporting documentation as

> required. Please confirm that the parameters defined in section G3.1.3.2

>

> through G3.1.2.5 have been modeled, and that the mandatory requirements

> of Section 6.4 have been adhered to. Please add sufficient information

> to Table 1.4 to confirm that the Baseline boiler systems were modeled in

>

> accordance with these requirements"

>

> the usgbc cir & 90.1 references:

>

> 1.  USGBC Advanced Energy Modeling for LEED (page 17) - Table 2.2, CIR

> dated 8/26/2008 and 4/23/2008. "Clarifies how to determine baseline HVAC

>

> system(s) for building eligible for more than one system type."

> -"CIR dated 8/26/2008 states that for projects with multiple uses in the

>

> same building, predominant condition as determined by total floor area

> should determine system type for entire building.  Ruling references

> note following Table G3.1.1A in ASHRAE 90.1-2004:  Where attributes make

>

> a building eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the

> predominant condition to determine the system type for the entire

> building."

> -"CIR dated 4/23/2008 confirms that when conditions do not vary per

> exceptions to G3.1.1, project teams must use single baseline system type

>

> for entire building.  HOwever, if project includes multiple detached

> buildings, each building can use different system type; this is

> addressed in Chapter 4 of document."

>

> 2.  90.1-2004 Table G3.1.1A Note 3 - "Where attributes make a building

> eligible for more than one baseline system type, use the predominant

> condition to determine the system type for the entire building."

>

> 3.  90.1-2004 Section G3.1.1 Exception (a) - "Use additional system

> type(s) for non-predominant conditions (i.e. residential/nonresidential

> or heating source) if those conditions apply to more than 20,000 sf of

> conditioned floor area." (Note the fire stations in the two projects

> with the comments above are each less than 14,000 sf of conditioned

> floor area.)

>

> 4.  90.1-2004 User's Manual - "The scope of Standard 90.1, in terms of

> residential spaces, applies just to spaces with four or more stories, so

>

> low-rise residential is excluded."

>

> regards,

> patrick
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