[Bldg-sim] Exterior Gas Powered Torches

Christopher Zabaneh czabaneh at davislangdon.us
Thu Sep 16 11:34:12 PDT 2010


I agree with Bill in that it definitely needs to be included.

On one hand, if the decorative burners are never mentioned in the project with LEED, then they wouldn't know to look for it - HOWEVER, that would be rather unethical given that as Bill mentioned, all energy consumption must be included in the model.

If the decorations are temporary and only for a very specific, one-off event for a short period of time then they could reasonably be excluded.

Given they are gas and not electric, I would not put them in as an electrical process load. The decorative burners could be added on not in the energy model itself but directly into the LEED Submittal Template. The Templates provide spaces to add extra inputs and extra/exceptional calculations. The energy use and cost could be manually calculated and then use the natural gas virtual rates from the project (or the actual gas rates of the actual fuel type) as long as they are in both the baseline and proposed case.

As long as your work is well documented and justifiable then it should be ok - but I would be prepare the client for a LEED Clarification on that regardless given its unique nature.


Christopher Zabaneh, LEED AP BD+C

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From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Bishop, Bill
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 11:02 AM
To: Chris
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Exterior Gas Powered Torches

Chris,

My understanding of the intent of ASHRAE Standard 90.1 and LEED EAc1 is that all building energy is to be included, so the energy needs to be accounted for. I don't think you can exclude it just because it is exterior to the building. You don't exclude other exterior features like lighting and snow melt systems. I would consider an exterior gas-powered decoration as either a process load, or an exterior lighting load. If it is exterior lighting, the project may exceed the exterior lighting power allowance (90.1 Section 9.4), which is a prerequisite. (Editorial comment - If I worked on the project, I would take this approach to try to get the torches removed, since I find the prospect of gas powered decorations silly for any building, especially a LEED project.) If you treat them as a process load, then you put the same load in baseline and proposed. I think you have to include them if they fall within the LEED project boundary, since all building energy use is supposed to be covered.

Regards,
Bill

William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED(r) AP | Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP
Mechanical Engineer

134 South Fitzhugh Street
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P Sustainability - less is more.
________________________________
From: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Carol Gardner
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:36 PM
To: Chris
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Exterior Gas Powered Torches

I think I'd tend not to include it but in any case it would be the same in either the proposed or baseline, a good reason not to include it.

Carol
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Chris <floodyc at gmail.com<mailto:floodyc at gmail.com>> wrote:
Our proposed design has exterior gas powered flame-torches for decorative purposes.
The energy consumption of these torches could be significant compared to the building energy consumption as it is quite a small building.
Has anyone had experience with this design from a LEED perspective. Does it need to be included in the LEED model?
The preference is that it does not need to be included considering the high energy consumption.

--
Chris Flood BSc (Eng)
Senior Building Analyst & Energy Modeller

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--
Carol Gardner PE
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