[Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's

Chris Yates chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
Tue Feb 8 00:24:26 PST 2011


Dear Jeff,


You mention the use of "Real walls or _*air walls*_" between zones in 
your post. I feel this raises a question on this list that I've already 
enquired on this list. I apologise for raising the issue once more, 
however I did not feel that the discussion resulted in a clear 
conclusion of how various simulation programs may treat "Air walls" or 
"virtual partitions".


I hope you don't mind me asking:

    * what programs do you use mainly?
    * under normal modelling practice, how would these programs treat
      "air walls" with respect to:
          o Conduction
          o Long-wave radiation
          o Short-wave radiation
          o Air flow

Many thanks

Chris

On 05/02/2011 22:04, Jeff Haberl wrote:
>
> ALSO:
>
> Here are a few papers that shed light on the ELF/OLF proxy method and 
> other findings, somewhat dated but useful:
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building Energy 
> Audits: How Daily and Hourly Consumption Data Can Help,” /ASHRAE 
> Journal, /Vol. 32, No. 9, pp. 26 - 36 (September).
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building Energy 
> Audits: How Annual and Monthly Consumption Data Can Help,” /ASHRAE 
> Journal,/ Vol. 32, No. 8, pp. 26 - 33 (August).
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. “Status Report on Methods for Using 
> Hourly, Daily and Monthly Data to Provide Useful Information on 
> Building Energy Use,” submitted to the New Jersey Energy Conservation 
> Lab, Center for Energy and Environmental Studies at Princeton 
> University, Princeton, New Jersey (May).
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. “Investigating An Analytical Basis for 
> Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Early Results from a New 
> Jersey Mall,” /Thermal Performance of the Exterior Envelopes of 
> Buildings IV,/ ASHRAE, Atlanta, Georgia, pp. 302 - 331 (December).
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P., Haberl, J. 1989. “Investigating An Analytical 
> Basis for Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Results from a 
> New Jersey Mall,” Center for Energy and Environmental Studies Report 
> No. 264 (June).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> [bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] on behalf of Jeff Haberl 
> [jhaberl at tamu.edu]
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 05, 2011 3:44 PM
> *To:* Carol Gardner; R B
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
>
> Rohini,
>
> Zoning a building is still an art form. There are very few papers that 
> have looked into this with any rigor.
>
> In one thesis we did on the Zachry building, which was the basis for 
> the Predictor Shootout I and II, we looked at 1, 2, 5 and actual 
> zoning on the building. What we saw was that, in general, the centroid 
> of the "cloud" of data points remained about the same. However, the 
> scatter in the cloud became more  pronounced at we added more zones.
>
> So, if all the zones in the floor are being operated the same, I'd use 
> 1, 2 or 5 zones per floor, depending on the functions of what's going 
> on in each zone. Real walls or air walls between the zones usually get 
> the job done.
>
> The quickest way to get the light and receptacle loads on a real 
> building is using "blink" tests, which can be done on a Saturday, with 
> walkie talkies, and a data logger on the whole-building electric feed, 
> possibly some sub feeds. I first heard of this test from Todd Taylor 
> at PNNL. We've used it to help resolved motor loads, lighting loads, 
> receptacles, etc. Seems to work pretty well.
>
> There are also several ways to get the plug loads, including: by 
> proxy, by weather-day-type profiles, by daily readings, and a method 
> that uses an energy balance. The proxy methods can use square proxies 
> for for the occupancy based on OLF/ELF ratios, the weather-day-type 
> method was something that I heard about from Don Hadley at PNNL, later 
> adopted by Bou Saada on the Forrestal building and daycare center. The 
> daily readings are just that, read the main meter by eye, daily, 
> especially during weather independent times. The energy balance method 
> is documented in papers by Claridge et al. at the ESL.
>
> There is also some encouraging work being done by Abushakra and Reddy 
> on ASHRAE RP 1404, now in progress and scheduled for completion later 
> this year. This is based on previous work by Abushakra for his Ph.D. 
> thesis.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jeff
>
> PS: here are some helpful papers:
>
> Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. “A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation 
> of a New Commercial Building: Part I – Calibrated As-built 
> Simulation”,/ASHRAE Transactions-Research, /Vol. 114, Pt. 2, pp. 
> 375-388 (June ).
>
> Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. “A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation 
> of a New Commercial Building: Part II – Overall Methodology and 
> Comparison of Results”,/ASHRAE Transactions-Research, /Vol. 114, Pt. 
> 2, pp. 389 – 403 (June).
>
> Claridge, D., Abushakra, B., Haberl, J. 2003. “Electricity Diversity 
> Profiles for Energy Simulation of Office Buildings (1093-RP),” /ASHRAE 
> Transactions-Research,/ Vol. 110, Pt. 1 (February), pp. 365-377.
>
> Haberl, J., Bou-Saada, T. 1998. “Procedures for Calibrating Hourly 
> Simulation Models to Measured Building Energy and Environmental Data,” 
> /ASME Journal of Solar Energy Engineering/, Vol. 120, pp. 193 - 204 
> (August).
>
> Haberl, J., Bronson, D., O'Neal, D. 1995. “An Evaluation of the Impact 
> of Using Measured Weather Data Versus TMY Weather Data in a DOE-2 
> Simulation of an Existing Building in Central Texas,” /ASHRAE 
> Transactions-Research, /Vol. 101, Pt.. 2, pp. 558 - 576 (June).
>
> Haberl, J., Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., O'Neal, D. 1993. “Graphical 
> Tools to help Calibrate the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-weather 
> Dependent Measured Loads,” /ASHRAE Journal/, Vol. 35, No. 1, pp. 27 - 
> 32 (January).
>
> Haberl, J., MacDonald, M., Eden, A. 1988. “An Overview of 3-D 
> Graphical Analysis Using DOE-2 Hourly Simulation Data,” /ASHRAE 
> Transactions-Research, /Vol. 94, Pt. 1, pp. 212 - 227 (January).
>
> Kim, K., Haberl, J. 2010. “Development of a Calibration Methodology 
> for Code-Complaint Simulation With Results From Using a Case-Study 
> House in a Hot and Humid Climate”,/Proceedings of the 17thSymposium on 
> Improving Building Systems in Hot and Humid Climates,/Texas A&M 
> University, Austin, Texas, accepted for publication (May).
>
> Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., Haberl, J., O'Neal, D. 1992. “A Procedure 
> for Calibrating the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-Weather Dependent 
> Loads,” /ASHRAE Transactions-Research, /Vol. 98, Pt. 1, pp. 636 - 652 
> (January).
>
> 8=!  8=)  :=)  8=)  ;=)  8=)  8=(  8=)  8=()  8=)  8=|  8=)  :=')  8=)8=?
>
> Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., FASHRAE..............jhaberl at tamu.edu
>
> Professor............................................................Office 
> Ph: 979-845-6507
>
> Department of Architecture.............................Lab Ph:979-845-6065
>
> Energy Systems Laboratory.............................FAX: 979-862-2457
>
> Texas A&M University.....................................77843-3581
>
> College Station, Texas, USA, 77843..................URL:www.esl.tamu.edu
>
> 8=/  8=)  :=)  8=)  ;=)  8=)  8=()  8=)  :=)  8=)  8=!  8=)  8=? 8=)8=0
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org 
> [bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] on behalf of Carol Gardner 
> [cmg750 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:59 PM
> *To:* R B
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
>
> Hi Rohini,
>
> When you are bill matching there are not magical ways of doing things. 
> You pretty much have to put what's in the building in your model. 
> Those things you can control. The tricky part is to figure out how the 
> building is really being operated and to get the most accurate weather 
> data you can for your site.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carol
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:34 AM, R B <slv3sat at gmail.com 
> <mailto:slv3sat at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     Hi All,
>     While modelling existing building (with calibration to utility
>     bill), do you model every VAV zone or lump similar ones together?
>     What could be possible disadvantages of lumping down the road? Any
>     ECM's that will be affected by this simplification?
>     Is there a magical way to figure the W/sqft for lighting and plug
>     loads without having to count everything on site?
>     Thanks for any insights.
>     -Rohini
>
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>
>
> -- 
> Carol Gardner PE
>
>
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-- 

Chris Yates C Eng MCIBSE

/Building Physics Consultant/

Tel:+447960731576

Email: chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com

Skype: christopher.m.yates

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