[Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's

Francisco Massucci massucci at gmail.com
Tue Feb 8 08:14:15 PST 2011


Hi,

  Is it possible to simulate an open door or a open window in a face with
outdoors boundary conditions? (only calculating heat loss or gains to the
enviroment). Example: If I apply a "infrared transparent' in a exterior
window, does it works as a open window, for energy balance calculation?

Sorry about my english.

Thanks,
Francisco Massucci

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:14 PM, songsuwon <ssw1007 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> In DOE-2 program, "air wall" is a type of interior walls without thermal
> mass effect, only for thermal resistance(0.9 hr-ft2-F/btu) between zones. I
> think other similar simulation programs have also the same function.
>
> Suwon Song
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:40:22 -0200
> From: massucci at gmail.com
> To: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
>
> Hi all,
>
>   I would like to add a question to the list:
>
>   - Air wall works the same when apllied in a between zones face or in
> an outdoor face?
> thanks
> Francisco Massucci
> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Chris Yates <chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>  Dear Jeff,
>
>
> You mention the use of "Real walls or *air walls*" between zones in your
> post. I feel this raises a question on this list that I've already enquired
> on this list. I apologise for raising the issue once more, however I did not
> feel that the discussion resulted in a clear conclusion of how various
> simulation programs may treat "Air walls" or "virtual partitions".
>
> I hope you don't mind me asking:
>
>    - what programs do you use mainly?
>    - under normal modelling practice, how would these programs treat "air
>    walls" with respect to:
>       -  Conduction
>       - Long-wave radiation
>       - Short-wave radiation
>       - Air flow
>
> Many thanks
>
> Chris
>
>
> On 05/02/2011 22:04, Jeff Haberl wrote:
>
>  ALSO:
>
>
>
>
>
> Here are a few papers that shed light on the ELF/OLF proxy method and other
> findings, somewhat dated but useful:
>
>
>
>  Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits:
> How Daily and Hourly Consumption Data Can Help,” *ASHRAE Journal, *Vol.
> 32, No. 9, pp. 26 - 36 (September).
>
>
>
>  Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1990. “Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits:
> How Annual and Monthly Consumption Data Can Help,” *ASHRAE Journal,* Vol.
> 32, No. 8, pp. 26 - 33 (August).
>
>
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. “Status Report on Methods for Using Hourly,
> Daily and Monthly Data to Provide Useful Information on Building Energy
> Use,” submitted to the New Jersey Energy Conservation Lab, Center for Energy
> and Environmental Studies at Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey
> (May).
>
>
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P. 1989. “Investigating An Analytical Basis for
> Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Early Results from a New Jersey
> Mall,” *Thermal Performance of the Exterior Envelopes of Buildings IV,*ASHRAE, Atlanta, Georgia, pp. 302 - 331 (December).
>
>
>
> Haberl, J., Komor, P., Haberl, J. 1989. “Investigating An Analytical Basis
> for Improving Commercial Building Energy Audits: Results from a New Jersey
> Mall,” Center for Energy and Environmental Studies Report No. 264 (June).
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>  *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] on behalf of Jeff Haberl [
> jhaberl at tamu.edu]
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 05, 2011 3:44 PM
> *To:* Carol Gardner; R B
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
>
>  Rohini,
>
> Zoning a building is still an art form. There are very few papers that have
> looked into this with any rigor.
>
> In one thesis we did on the Zachry building, which was the basis for the
> Predictor Shootout I and II, we looked at 1, 2, 5 and actual zoning on the
> building. What we saw was that, in general, the centroid of the "cloud" of
> data points remained about the same. However, the scatter in the cloud
> became more  pronounced at we added more zones.
>
> So, if all the zones in the floor are being operated the same, I'd use 1, 2
> or 5 zones per floor, depending on the functions of what's going on in each
> zone. Real walls or air walls between the zones usually get the job done.
>
> The quickest way to get the light and receptacle loads on a real building
> is using "blink" tests, which can be done on a Saturday, with walkie
> talkies, and a data logger on the whole-building electric feed, possibly
> some sub feeds. I first heard of this test from Todd Taylor at PNNL. We've
> used it to help resolved motor loads, lighting loads, receptacles, etc.
> Seems to work pretty well.
>
> There are also several ways to get the plug loads, including: by proxy, by
> weather-day-type profiles, by daily readings, and a method that uses an
> energy balance. The proxy methods can use square proxies for for the
> occupancy based on OLF/ELF ratios, the weather-day-type method was something
> that I heard about from Don Hadley at PNNL, later adopted by Bou Saada on
> the Forrestal building and daycare center. The daily readings are just that,
> read the main meter by eye, daily, especially during weather independent
> times. The energy balance method is documented in papers by Claridge et al.
> at the ESL.
>
> There is also some encouraging work being done by Abushakra and Reddy on
> ASHRAE RP 1404, now in progress and scheduled for completion later this
> year. This is based on previous work by Abushakra for his Ph.D. thesis.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jeff
>
> PS: here are some helpful papers:
>
>
> Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. “A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation of a
> New Commercial Building: Part I – Calibrated As-built Simulation”,  *ASHRAE
> Transactions-Research, *Vol. 114, Pt. 2, pp. 375-388 (June ).
>
>
>
> Song, S., Haberl, J. 2008. “A Procedure for the Performance Evaluation of a
> New Commercial Building: Part II – Overall Methodology and Comparison of
> Results”,  *ASHRAE Transactions-Research, *Vol. 114, Pt. 2, pp. 389 – 403
> (June).
>
>
>
> Claridge, D., Abushakra, B., Haberl, J. 2003. “Electricity Diversity
> Profiles for Energy Simulation of Office Buildings (1093-RP),” *ASHRAE
> Transactions-Research,* Vol. 110, Pt. 1 (February), pp. 365-377.
>
>
>
> Haberl, J., Bou-Saada, T. 1998. “Procedures for Calibrating Hourly
> Simulation Models to Measured Building Energy and Environmental Data,” *ASME
> Journal of Solar Energy Engineering*, Vol. 120, pp. 193 - 204 (August).
>
>
>
> Haberl, J., Bronson, D., O'Neal, D. 1995. “An Evaluation of the Impact of
> Using Measured Weather Data Versus TMY Weather Data in a DOE-2 Simulation of
> an Existing Building in Central Texas,” *ASHRAE Transactions-Research, *Vol.
> 101, Pt.. 2, pp. 558 - 576 (June).
>
>
>
> Haberl, J., Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., O'Neal, D. 1993. “Graphical Tools to
> help Calibrate the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-weather Dependent
> Measured Loads,” *ASHRAE Journal*, Vol. 35, No. 1, pp. 27 - 32 (January).
>
>
>
> Haberl, J., MacDonald, M., Eden, A. 1988. “An Overview of 3-D Graphical
> Analysis Using DOE-2 Hourly Simulation Data,” *ASHRAE
> Transactions-Research, *Vol. 94, Pt. 1, pp. 212 - 227 (January).
>
>
>
> Kim, K., Haberl, J. 2010. “Development of a Calibration Methodology for
> Code-Complaint Simulation With Results From Using a Case-Study House in a
> Hot and Humid Climate”,  *Proceedings of the 17th  Symposium on Improving
> Building Systems in Hot and Humid Climates,* Texas A&M University, Austin,
> Texas, accepted for publication (May).
>
>
>
> Bronson, D., Hinchey, S., Haberl, J., O'Neal, D. 1992. “A Procedure for
> Calibrating the DOE-2 Simulation Program to Non-Weather Dependent Loads,”
> *ASHRAE Transactions-Research, *Vol. 98, Pt. 1, pp. 636 - 652 (January).
>
>
> 8=!  8=)  :=)  8=)  ;=)  8=)  8=(  8=)  8=()  8=)  8=|  8=)  :=')  8=)8=?
>
> Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E., FASHRAE..............jhaberl at tamu.edu
>
> Professor............................................................Office
> Ph: 979-845-6507
>
> Department of Architecture.............................Lab Ph:979-845-6065
>
> Energy Systems Laboratory.............................FAX: 979-862-2457
>
> Texas A&M University.....................................77843-3581
>
> College Station, Texas, USA, 77843..................URL:www.esl.tamu.edu
>
> 8=/  8=)  :=)  8=)  ;=)  8=)  8=()  8=)  :=)  8=)  8=!  8=)  8=? 8=)8=0
>  ------------------------------
>  *From:* bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [
> bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] on behalf of Carol Gardner [
> cmg750 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:59 PM
> *To:* R B
> *Cc:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Modelling for retrofit ECM's
>
> Hi Rohini,
>
> When you are bill matching there are not magical ways of doing things. You
> pretty much have to put what's in the building in your model. Those things
> you can control. The tricky part is to figure out how the building is really
> being operated and to get the most accurate weather data you can for your
> site.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carol
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:34 AM, R B <slv3sat at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
> While modelling existing building (with calibration to utility bill), do
> you model every VAV zone or lump similar ones together? What could be
> possible disadvantages of lumping down the road? Any ECM's that will be
> affected by this simplification?
> Is there a magical way to figure the W/sqft for lighting and plug loads
> without having to count everything on site?
> Thanks for any insights.
> -Rohini
>
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>
>
> --
> Carol Gardner PE
>
>
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>
> --
> Chris Yates C Eng MCIBSE
> *Building Physics Consultant*
> Tel:   +447960731576
> Email: chris.malcolm.yates at gmail.com
> Skype: christopher.m.yates
>
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